Where’s the tradition?
July 19, 2010 by natb19
I noticed something funny a while ago when I was looking through the comments in mymuaythai.com (ok, more interesting than funny). In one of Nop’s posts relating to MMA, some people commented on the lack of tradition in MMA, and was one of the reasons that they preferred Muay Thai over MMA. I like reading the comments on MyMuayThai.com, as I think they cover a good range of the Muay Thai community and so I figure this is how a lot of nag muays feel.
I found this interesting because it reminded me about the way I felt about Muay Thai when I first came to Thailand as a martial artist. I had respect for the sport, especially the fitness level and the weight of the combat, but there was something about it that didn’t appeal to me on a deeper level.
I’ve heard and seen this from other martial artists as well – it’s just a sport, there’s no depth to it, no tradition, making out that your average nag muay is just a thug wanting to bash something (which is kind of understandable when you look at the amount of blind bashing of pads goes on in the average gym). No tradition? No depth?
So when I see the same argument being echoed about MMA by nag muays, it got me thinking. Is there truth behind this? Where is the tradition in Muay Thai? Why is this use of tradition as validation important?
Let’s look at the traditions used in Muay Thai. You have the wai kru /ram muay before the fight, the mongkok/phra jiabs, the traditional fighting music, wai kru day (how many nag muays actually pay respects to their teachers this way?). In contrast look at how Muay Thai has become a source of corruption, gambling, and sex (just look at the new Bangla Stadium in Phuket which hosts a full set of girl bars bellow the stadium on the second floor) where does this leave the image of the art?
Yes, I said art. As I’m sure you know, I study and teach Muay Thai chaiya which is often referred to as ‘traditional Muay Thai’. Saying that though, I can’t think of many more traditions used in this style. There’s the Keurn Kru ceremony (which, after 2 years of teaching, I haven’t done for any of my students yet), then there’s kad cheuak (learning to make rope and bind fists) and phra jiab see saa (traditional mongkon) and phra jiab ken (the same as the arm straps in modern Muay Thai). The final examples that come to mind is that all of the techniques are taught using the old Thai diction (instead of ‘yab’ ‘cross’ ‘hook’ ‘kick’ in modern gyms) and Graab Loob Ajarn – bowing to the pictures of respected teachers at the beginning and end of lessons. These final two can be found in other martial arts.
Let us compare this with modern (westernised) martial arts such as Judo, Karate, Taekwondo, Chinese boxing etc. There are the classical gi’s that are worn, bowing to respected teachers when commencing and ending training, the use of the original language for names of techniques and running of a class, and an air of formality or discipline when running a class, the diligent practice of katas to perfect techniques and clearly distinguished grading and hierarchy of levels. Beyond this, I can’t think of many more. Obviously different styles may have small differences, but I am using my own recollection of these styles as a comparison, highlighting common practices across them all.
So in fact, it seems that modern martial arts have the same if not less traditional aspects than even modern Muay Thai.
What about MMA then? Well, as far as I’m concerned, there are two types of MMA fighter. The old school and new (or should that be old schools?). The old school MMA practitioners have learnt at least two forms of martial art in the traditional sense, and so in fact have learnt and experienced the traditions of these arts also. Whereas the new school learn a more refined combination of striking and grappling arts which are more specialised for the sport, but this teaching (in general) carries much less of the traditional aspects of the contributing arts.
So depending one the type of MMA fighter (old or new school) the difference in knowledge and practice of traditions can vary greatly.
Where does this all lead us? Well, in my mind that the style snobbery (which I also had) that lead me to write this is pretty unfounded. Each of the styles listed carry traditions in some form, but also suffer (?) from commercialisation that brings down (in my mind) the standards of the arts. Usually this is for the same purpose – to wow Joe Public. I think this is often the target of snobbery for martial art (all of the above) purists.
But all said and done, what is the point of this tradition? What gives the ‘purists’ the right to feel superior?
If we look back to the origins of most martial arts we find a spiritual base, whether it’s religious or not, it’s something that takes us beyond just learning how to punch, kick and how to hurt people. It is about learning to become better people, carrying the lessons we learn as martial ARTISTS through to our everyday lives. Being examples to Joe Public, especially in the modern age of commercialism and materialistic practices, where thuggary is rife and helping people in trouble is discouraged due to concern for oneself (retribution by gangs or the law). Where greed is rewarded and quite often, the nice guy comes in last.
With great power comes great responsibility (thanks Uncle Ben) and when we are held in high regard (as fighters/ martial artists), don’t we have a responsibility to be good examples to the people especially when other forms of celebrity quite often fall short?
Primarily it’s a teacher’s responsibility to not only regurgitate a bunch of lessons, but engage and challenge students to expand and think past their opinions of their limits of ability and self. I know I’ve been lucky enough to come across a great many teachers who have inspired me, and I try and do the same for my students.
I don’t want to sound preachy, because I know that I’m far from perfect, but I like to set myself high standards and I try to reach them. I know that my goals may not be yours, and you have your own motives for doing what you do.
But without the meaning, the purpose, the soul behind these traditions that we cling to, what good are they anyway?
More about Nathan
Starting with Judo at the early age of 7, Nathan Brown was a student martial arts (Taekwondo, Kung Fu, Chinese Boxing, Tai Chi, Jeet June Do) and eastern philosophy long before moving to Thailand in 2002, looking for a life more attuned to the Taoist philosophies that he had come to love.
The first meeting with Ajarn Lek made a great impression, especially after sparring with Tae for the first time and seeing the beauty in simplicity which is Muay Thai Chaiya. Seeing the practicality in defense, and efficiency and directness of attack, he also saw many similarities with the more advanced concepts of fighting that he’d learnt from studying the Jeet Kune Do concepts of Bruce Lee. Kru Nathan has learnt Muay Thai Chaiya for over 7 years from Ajarn Lek, who refuses to teach the fancy superfluous moves which now seem to be the trademark of Muay Boran, instead teaching the style in it’s practical, useful form.
Kru Nathan has spent over two years teaching the style in Thailand (teaching in both Thai and English), and 8 years after coming to Thailand Kru Nathan is now looking to take Muay Thai Chaiya international, starting workshops and private tuition.
Check out his websites (www.mymuaychaiya.com, www.learnmuaythaichaiya.com ) and his youtube channel for more information on learning Muay Thai Chaiya.
Hey,
So far I’ve studied a bit of Karate, Kempo and just recently started Muay Thai (only 1 month in but loving it).
I also feel that traditional aspects of a martial art gives it the “purist” feel, this feeling that we belong to a certain clan because we speak a language and interact with people in a way that’s different to the rest of the population (try bowing to thank your boss in the Western world and see what happens…).
I’m ok with introducing traditional aspects in martial arts as it fosters some kind of interest for the arts’ original country (I would never have considered learning about Japan or Thailand before practicing martial arts) but I have a problem with it if it’s all about putting yourself above others because you practice an “elite” and codified sport.
Martial arts is about, as you said, being a better human being but I don’t think this is achieved via introducing traditional aspects. In my opinion, what makes you a better person by practicing martial arts can be found in most sports:
- you hurt a lot physically to make progress, it fosters your determination
- you practice with people whom you learn to trust, it encourages sociability and tolerance
- you may be competitive, you know about making sacrifices in your life to pursue a goal.
All these qualities that you acquire while practicing martial arts can be acquired by practicing a lot of sports (although the sport-specific fact that you are learning to hurt other people makes you consider your sparring partners like some kind of family, like tiger cubs from the same litter); the traditional aspects are resulting from the very spiritual and codified asian culture in my opinion.
There, don’t know if that made any sense or if i’m missing the point completely but that’s my take on tradition (i’m still young at 24 mind you so it may be different for the long-term practitioners).
mma gyms are horrible. a good MT gym has traditions, history, they try to teach you respect and not to hurt people with your weapons. mma gym is no different than going to football practice. your just there to grunt and be tuff and learn. they could care less about how their students conduct themselves. well maybe they might care but they sure dont care to teach any moral or self respect aspects in their classes. that is what ive gathered from the “mma crowd”. a person that trains MT at a respectable gym has every right to look down on douche producing mma gyms. i know poeple that train mma. if u watch the ultimate fighter reality show thats kinda whats its like. they train but theres no tradition or anything about self growth trying to be taught.
from watching mma fighters conduct themselves in the ring[excuse me, CAGE] to how they are in real life to how they are displayed on tv. its all there for you to see.
Just briefly…tradition and respect are wholly separate things. Its easy to confuse the two but they are nothing alike.
SE: so a gym is horrible if it doesn’t celebrate wai kru? So if a guy punches a dude in Muay Thai, it’s respectable and honourable, while his MMA counterpart would be called a grunt? I don’t quite get your logic here.
They don’t teach the respect aspect in MMA gyms? Well, I am sure there are not too many MMA gyms that have students swearing and insulting each other (unless the’re joking). Just because they don’t bow, kneel to each other doesn’t mean they don’t show respect to each other.
Plus with your thought about how they behave on TUF. It’s a show. Though it’s called Reality TV, it’s still TV….. we don’t know how much has been edited out, which part is scripted. Also there’s something called TV personna.
——
I’ve had professional fights in Muay Thai, Boxing and MMA. Though I have to admit that I like Muay Thai better as a sport, but that doesn’t mean I would agree with your elitist attitude towards other martial arts enthusiasts
@nonsense. Change your name to total sense since that’s what you just made. The counter to the tuf show on spike as far as muay thai goes is contender. Specifically dzhabar vs that french dude. Not very respectful. As far as disrespectful nak muay theyre are to many to name. One of the more colorful ones is rambaa somdet. The double standard between thai born nak muay and foreign is unacceptable. They act like dicks= great showman ship and “vibrant personalities” We do the same and were bad for the sport,cocky and arrogant. At the end of the day no matter where you’re born we all have the potential to be dicks. MMA in my opinion has more “juice head dicks” than muay thai,but all mma’ers arent JHD’S.
Its Simple! Thai-Boxing and Boxing is a poor mans sport! In the origin of the sport, the majority of thai boxers and boxers alike are forced into fighting to make a living for themselves and their families. These men and women are plucked off the streets at a young age and bred into lifetime fighters. They cultivate their lives and careers to the sport. On the other hand, MMA is not necessarily a poor mans sport. As I’ve observed (especially here in the states), MMA fights are handed out to any and all. You aren’t required to have a quality pedigree or enriched experience to be considered a “champion” or the “best.” SImply put, any joe-schmoe can be thrown into the ring for a chance to beat up an opponent. As a result, this attitude or lack of respect has grown from the MMA culture. It isn’t to say whether one sport is more respectable than the other…that isn’t the point. It’s the fad-sensation that has brought upon the popularity of MMA that allows for a very quick route to success. This has created in simple words…a lack of respect towards fighting as a sport.
nonsense,
deosnt have to do with fucking bowing or not. its how you act and what comes out of your mouth. and ive heard/seen a lot from the mma crowd.
as far as the double standard with foregniers and thais showing off..its kind of true. but a huge aspect of the thais “showing off” has A LOT if not everything to do with impressing the judges.
what anderson silva did or what other mma fighters do is not playing to the judge but is comin from testerone fueld bouts of stupidity.
Building on what Stack said..for me it is very important to represent the sport well. I’ve seen a lot of Muay Thai schools with fighters that wear the arm bands and the head bands and do the wai kru but in the ring they are sloppy, angry, in poor physical shape, etc. To me, Thai Boxing is an art, but there is nothing artful about how some fighters practice it, no matter how they dress themselves before the fight begins. To me, respect means taking the time to perfect your craft, so that when you fight, win or lose, you represent yourself, your gym, and most importantly the sport well. I think the respect argument as it pertains to MMA is that this is an impossible thing to accomplish when one is simply taking bits and pieces from a bunch of different sports. But..maybe this is just a matter of MMA needing time to develop it’s own path, so that it’s fighters have something to respect :)
Good post, I enjoyed reading it
I think every aspect of our lives ,whether its martial arts,cake decorating or even baseball card collecting eventually loses its sincerity and uniqueness once the “masses” get a hold of it and twist it into some perverted semblance of what it originally once was in order to be part of the “in” crowd.
Ive been practicing Muay Thai for only a couple of years,and like anything I take an avid interest in I tend to soak up every ounce of information I can find in order to truly appreciate it.Unfortunately,others temporarily only want to be part of the crowd and will eventually move on to something else when something hotter or cooler pops up.
Everything goes to shit eventually,Lets just hope that as little damage as possible occurs .
this whole thing is just so much mental masturbation. in any class one takes, the instructor should receive respect. whatever one’s goal is, it should be pursued w/ dedication. “lineage”, “pedigree” are the reason many call bullshit when it comes to “traditional” martial arts…do what you like already!
To elaborate on Loco’s point
MT gym – $80-100/month
MMA gym $150-$200/month
Community boxing gym $20/month
Its an issue of socio-economic class as well. Those that tend to start from humble roots have an easier time being humble, those that don’t start from as humble roots have a harder time of it by my observation.
@Stack, I concur.
One of the first things out of my Kru’s mouth when I first met him , was , Muay Thai is Humble Ferocity.
BTW, we Wai our Kru before and after each session…………
damn my shins hurt!!
To me there’s an upper limit. All good things have to be enjoyed in some moderation.
Respecting the origins of Muay Thai is important and and goes along with educating yourself a bit about the heritage of the great sport of Muay Thai. In this sport the national identity of Muay Thai is inherent in the sport and the art. Honor should be paid to your teacher and fellow students. In regards to this article there are plenty of elitist ‘artists’ that look down on the sport and consider all things outside of their cultlike beliefs invalid pretty much summarily. In fact i have witnessed more of the former and not so much of the latter scenario.
However people need to stop at emulation. Its insulting and an ugly parody. I find that behavior hugely disrespectful and misled to the point of perversion.
We’ve all seen it. the non-stop wai whether needed or not, the broken Thai-glish, the faux buddhist fortune cookie sayings. Its annoying and embarrassing.
Let me give you an analogy perhaps all of you can relate to easier. I live in a primarily Caucasian society. I respect the cultural mores by not wearing coolie suits and slippers. But I don’t co-opt culture not mine by going on hayrides and playing banjo. Why would anyone not Thai spit fortune cookie homilies in broken Thai and wai non-stop? You can be respectful without an attempt at emulation.
Give respect where required and don’t try to be something you’re not and the respect will not only be maintained but it will grow in my biased opinion.
I have to say, SE’s comments struck a chord with me. Just form researching the MMA gyms around town where I live, I notice a whole different vibe from pure MT gyms.
There’s more art to MT. That’s what I like about it. It is dangerous AND artful. I think it’s because historically MT is an art of attrition. These guys would just trade blows. Whole different approach to ring fighting.
Also I’ve been through many MMA gyms and what SE is describing is by no means isolated behavior or wholly uncommon.
@Manny66 – I like your Kru’s saying “Muay Thai is Humble Ferocity.” Nice. For me, that describes muay thai perfectly. Thanks :)
The “sport” of Muay Thai has originated from the root where most martial arts have been birthed or cultivated: an oppressed people acting to defend themselves. Muay Thai is the people’s sport derived from krabi krabong. I think it is difficult to generalize an entire populous especially wherever one trains there will be at least one idiot or “JHD” in the room. I know there are a lot of men and women who are involved in MMA and martial arts to be a badass but there are many who want to learn from a more holistic aspect. Shin, Ki, Tai Ittho – Mind, Body, and Spirit as One or a variation of that is the motto that many “traditionalists” adhere to.
I currently train in a very traditional form of karate ((side note: I can relate to Nathan’s comments regarding Westernized forms of martial arts but again be careful not to generalize all forms practiced in Western countries as being watered down/modernized martial arts)) and at an MMA gym that has Muay Thai and BJJ. The benefit that I have found in studying traditional forms of martial art is the purpose behind a person’s reason for training in any style of martial art: Are you studying just to compete and strut around the ring or are you studying with a greater purpose in mind and to preserve your well-being and the well-being of others?
This purpose is an essential dynamic to a training, and even a competitive environment. Would you rather train/spar/compete with someone who has knowledge of the style, respect for you and acts with humility, etc or would you rather train/spar/compete with someone who is focused on being a badass, selfishly showing off, desiring to hurt their opponent, and competing to win with sloppy technique and a disrespectful attitude? It’s your choice.
So, what is your purpose for studying martial arts?