The Problem of Not Sleeping With Your Trainer

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I suspect a number of you are aware of the complications having sex at a muay thai gym in Thailand can cause.  It can be a messy affair, a matter that could be written extensively about, but a matter that I’m not going to touch in this piece.  The issue, rather, is on the opposite side of the spectrum.   It pertains to the problems that arise when you refuse to have sex with your trainer, someone else’s trainer, or whomever in the gym that’s trying to hit it with you.

I’ve revised this piece a number of times over the past seven months. Why?  Because the topic is not only complex, it’s one that I’m trying to approach without judgment.  My intent is not to make sweeping generalizations; it’s to create a dialogue.  I can only do so by sharing some of what has occurred to me training in Thailand over the past year plus, as well as my perception of what I’ve witnessed.  This is a matter that I believe is easier to not broach, but again, I feel that we can only benefit from discussing it or at the very least acknowledging it – there are a lot of women out there who plan to come to Thailand to train and others who are here who may think their experience, if similar, is only their own.

I’ll reiterate something I’ve written a number of times – there is great difference between the experiences of those who come to train at a gym for a few weeks, a few months and those who are here for the long haul.  In many cases, in regards to this topic, you can be female, show up at a gym, any number of guys will try to get with you – and whether you decide to be with someone or not makes little difference – you’re going home soon.  If you do, from my experience, chances are the long-term gym residents will know about it, and if you don’t, there is the possibility that someone will lie about it, and people will think you did anyhow.  Either way, it doesn’t matter, you’re going home.

When you’re here longer, things can get more convoluted.  I’ll illustrate with one personal example over the past year or so.  I’ve done my best to keep this as condensed as possible while trying to adequately illustrate that which occurred.  Please note, this particular situation began when I first arrived in Thailand – I was still very green, optimistic and very concerned about showing respect to the culture I was living in – both Thai and that of the gym.  I knew public displays of emotion, particularly anger would be frowned upon greatly and may not only cause me to be ostracized; such displays may be reason enough to boot me out.  This particular situation occurred at a gym where very few women train.

In retrospect you often see things differently than you do when they occur, but the following is my truth, and it is what it is.

When I first arrived at the gym, one of the trainers made it known he was attracted to me.   I didn’t think much of it until he told a fighter from another gym that was pursuing me, that he and I were lovers.  This didn’t sit well with me, so I confronted him about it privately and let my feelings, or rather, lack of, be known, again.  He said he understood and I didn’t let his actions affect me too deeply.

Shortly after, gifts were purchased.  He wanted to take care of me and I wanted distance.  When I told him I could do things independently, he was upset for days.  Eventually he accepted it.

At times, when he drank, he was dangerous.  There were phone calls asking into my room at night.  There was controlling, manipulative behaviour.  There was an instance where he got physical and I didn’t speak to him for weeks.  He was heartbroken and shook when he apologized.  There was another where he became overbearing and I threatened if he didn’t get himself in check; I’d discuss the situation with the owner.  He paused for a long time, months – but then something changed that made every receptor in my body stay on point, not only during the waking hours, but at night when I tried to sleep.  It affected everything for weeks – my eating patterns, my training, my ability to speak Thai and at times, I seriously questioned if my mental stability was getting slack…was I seeing things that didn’t exist?

Months previously I had decided to cross train at another gym.  I was dealing with a situation that is other from this one, but was intense – it eventually became one that I had to call the police and my embassy for assistance – perhaps that situation is for another piece.  Just know that because of this second situation, I was fielding calls from strangers – mostly men. And mostly men that were pretending to be men that I had met or that wanted to meet me. Please note, all of these calls were in Thai and I was still struggling with the language severely.  One of my regular callers was named Jak.  Whenever I’d receive a phone call of this nature, from anyone, I’d save the number and block it.  I had a couple entries for Jak, the last one being noted at Jak3.  Jak3 called me a number of times while I was at the other gym yet I felt it wasn’t the same Jak as the previous callers, despite the name.  Why?  I recognized the sounds of the street behind his voice.  I swore they were from my old gym.  Nonetheless, I questioned myself…why would someone from my old gym call me pretending to be someone else…

Why didn’t I change my phone number?  Two reasons: pride and because all of my financial institutions in Canada had it as a reference.  I couldn’t change the files from abroad.  I decided to deal with the callers hoping they eventually would become bored of me.  In time, I changed the number due to the other, more intense situation.

My sleeping pattern became erratic when I received a call from Jak3 at my home gym.  Having blocked the number, my phone didn’t ring, however the phone was in my hand when the call came through.  Before I thought about what I was doing, I answered it.  Jak3 didn’t lay out the same line of questioning as expected.  He was neither jealous nor accusatory; rather, he invited me out for dinner with some of the nak muays and the owner of the gym.  Jak3 was the trainer.

At the time another female was in residence.  She had arrived when I was cross training.  We compared stories and ours weren’t the same.  The boys teased us both, but I felt something was different with me.  She didn’t see it, but I could sense it.  Something was different than even a few months prior.  Everyone was still friendly and open, but I could read in some of their eyes that something had gone amiss.  I felt as if I was watched at times, their eyes trying to read mine, trying to make something out.  During this time, the trainer began to pay more attention to me.  Again, this was a gym where we all had to live together and he was the trainer the gym deemed responsible for Foreigners.  I couldn’t avoid him and felt that keeping things level was in everyone’s best interest – I was there to train and he had a lot of power.

Nonetheless, in an act of defense I asked the other muay ying to watch me.  I requested she ensure that I was never left alone with him when he was drinking.  I asked that she walked me to my room which is literally four meters (?) across from the gym and keep an eye on me.  She wasn’t convinced it was a dangerous situation; she was more concerned with a situation I had been dealing with concerning another trainer at the time…

Then a new kru arrived that I had previously met.  We were happy to see one another.   However, shortly after his arrival, his behaviour changed.  He followed the pattern a number of new faces at the gym had.  He looked at me differently and kept himself at a distance.  I’d catch him watching me sometimes…I knew something was off….this pattern had been going on for months.

Sub sequentially the nature of the teasing began to change.  A number of people started on me more frequently about the trainer.  Lighthearted, private teasing wasn’t uncommon because people knew he liked me and it just became a friendly joke at times, but now, when he wasn’t present people asked if I missed him.  When I asked where he was, they asked if my heart was broken.  A guy cringed when I touched him, one kid screamed.  And then, it was something I caught in the eyes of one of my favourite people, something I still can’t identify, perhaps sadness, perhaps disappointment, but it was the confirmation I was looking for…

Again, I approached the trainer privately.  I asked why everyone was teasing me about him.  He became defensive and instructed me to tell people we weren’t giks (lovers/hook ups).  I asked why people would even believe that, and that’s when I got my answer.  Point blank, he stared me in the eyes and said:

“Because everyone thinks you’re mooa”.

A whore.

This completely wiped my mind clean.  It didn’t make any sense to me.  I don’t even flirt.  He then again went into chastising me – all of which turned to babble…I wasn’t concerned with what he was saying, but that sentence, that sentence describes what I saw in the eyes of the guys at the gym.  Questioning, disappointment, judgment and with some, contempt.  For reasons unbeknown to me, I had lost their respect.

I went back to my room and made some phone calls.  I called people I trusted, people who independently told me the same truth.  The trainer had been telling everyone we were sleeping together.

At this point, and actually in previous months I realize I could have spoken to the owner about this issue.  Why didn’t I?  In part, I felt that I wouldn’t be believed.  I’m Falang and I’m female – our reputation here in Thailand generally is, we’re promiscuous.  The term ‘free sex’ gets thrown around a lot in regards to Falang.  Sometimes I feel the local translation of ‘free sex’ is as follows: Falang women are prostitutes you don’t have to pay for – we’ll sleep with anyone, anytime.  Also working against my case – the trainer has been with the gym for twenty years.  Why didn’t I leave?  Because I had developed an attachment to the gym and at times, I had received incredible training. I also felt this would happen at another gym.  I’m not solitary in this type of experience, and this isn’t the only trainer I’ve dealt with in this regard…

So how did I handle the situation?  I waited until breakfast when I knew a lot of people would be present, walked into the gym, to the trainer and simply asked, “Why are you lying to everyone?  Why are you saying we’re having sex when you know it’s not true?”  People were shocked, he was horrified, and I don’t know if I adequately masked the pain and anger in my eyes.

This goes against my understanding of ‘saving face’ in Thailand.  No one knew how to deal with me.  The owner’s wife heard me (I planned this) and in an effort to manipulate the situation for his own cause, the trainer explained that I had misunderstood everyone’s teasing.  However, he said it softly, I believe, so others couldn’t hear.  I made sure she understood otherwise.  I made sure everyone knew otherwise.  He was in a no win situation.  If he said he didn’t sleep with me, he would lose face in front of the guys, if he said he did; there would be possible repercussions because protocol at the gym is that trainers cannot be with Foreigners ….

In short, it was a mess that lasted about five to ten minutes.  The women at the gym were trying to convince me I was wrong, that because I’m Falang, I don’t understand Thai culture.  I don’t know if their reaction was an effort to save face/make the situation blow over, or if they truly believed what they were saying.  They continued that I was just upset about the teasing, refusing to believe me.  It was surreal and completely illogical – as though two conversations were happening and I was only included in one although they were both directed at me.  I realized then wasn’t the time to discuss his physical actions.  I left quietly. Enraged.  Confused.  Heartbroken.  I’m not accustomed to being accused of lying.  In the days that followed, no one knew what to do, how to act, and I couldn’t erase the sorrow in my eyes despite showing up to train.  I tried to poker face it, but I didn’t have the desire to speak.

One of the guys offered to help.  He spoke to a Thai friend of mine who is fluent in English.  When their conversation was complete, what she told me was as though she was speaking about someone else.  A number of things had been said about me in the gym, but the most jarring was that more than one of the guys had been saying I was sleeping with them.  Other than the trainer, I don’t know who else, or how many…I was just told ‘a lot’…I asked her if there was anything I did, anything that wasn’t congruent with Thai culture that may have somehow crossed wires somewhere.  She answered, “No, it’s because you are Falang.  It wouldn’t matter what you did”.  I asked her if my friend believed me.  Her answer?  “He doesn’t know what to believe..”

My heart emptied and went cold.  Was it because I was worried about my reputation as a whore?  In part, yes, because in this country, that’s a liability and may have affected my personal safety in my neighbourhood.  Everyone knows everyone’s business.  Could I just ignore it and continue training?  Within this context, I didn’t think so.  It affected too many aspects of my training – I had become the pariah.  That’s what I had sensed for months but couldn’t identify fully.  However, that’s not what completely made me feel as though my blood had corroded my arteries.  It was the sense of betrayal.  I didn’t know who my friends were.

A few days previous to this, one of the nak muays had asked if I was happy at the gym.  He exclaimed, “It’s like family here, isn’t it?”

As the days passed, I continued to train and eat at the same table with everyone.  At the time, I was the lone Foreigner and female.  There were a lot of concerned looks thrown my way and a number of people wouldn’t meet my gaze, but I’d catch them staring.  A number of the guys offered their kindness, gently making me feel welcome, included.  I finally opened up to one of them, and told him everything that had transpired.  I don’t know what he did with that information.  I decided to leave for awhile and he tried to convince me to stay, but something inside me had turned to dust – this wasn’t what I came out to Thailand to do – I came here to train.

I wasn’t satisfied with leaving the situation as it was, I didn’t want this happening to another female, so I decided to discuss it with the powers that be.  I felt they deserved an explanation for me leaving shortly after being asked to fight – they had always been respectful to me and I felt they deserved the same treatment.  I sat with them in the big office and told them most about what had occurred.  It wasn’t easy.  It was perhaps one of the hardest things I’ve had to do in this country – I didn’t know if I’d be believed, I didn’t know if they would turn and blame it on me.  I didn’t know if it would be confirmation that women shouldn’t be allowed to train muay thai at this establishment.  I was up against the cultural stereotype of the wayward, wanton Falang female and lifetimes of patriarchy.  We needed a translator to assist.  I was allowed to speak fully – it was then their turn.  The first question asked of me… “Was he ever in your room?”….. I have no idea what, if anything was done with the information.

This, in whatever form it takes, happens more often than discussed.  It’s a consistent thread I’ve become aware of that links a lot of women who are training here long-term.  Our stories are different, but the problem is the same – who we choose not to have sex with can affect our training and our lives.

I’ll continue, and generalize via situations I’ve encountered as well as others…your trainer thinks he can get with you.  He tries and you refuse.  The quality of your training somehow changes.  Then you realize you’re being traded off to new trainers, new trainers that try to get with you…new trainers that react differently when you refuse….they can lose interest, become abusive, sometimes using excessive force….all of which is generally passive in nature – blanketed, so you question the validity of their actions, your feelings….Then over time, if you stay at a gym long enough, new girls come in who receive great training.  If they sleep with their trainer, it generally continues, if they don’t, something, sometimes, changes, or their trainers switch….

I’ve had a trainer say, “You won’t love me?  I’ll only train you lightly…”

Am I implying that if the quality of a woman’s training changes, it’s due to the fact she’s not sleeping with her trainer?  No, it’s life, a lot of it is random, but I’m questioning a pattern I’ve seen develop that seems widespread….I know a number of girls who have jumped from gym to gym because of such issues.  None of this is congruent with what most of us come out here to do.  Train and for some of us, fight.

Was the above situation my only one?  No way, this sort of thing, in one form or another has followed me throughout this country.

What’s the answer?  I have no clue, maybe there isn’t one, maybe it’s simply about people being aware of the possibility and staying on point, about listening to their intuition, about holding their ground, about knowing when it’s time to leave, about communication…

As for me, I’ve changed my approach.  My Thai language skills have improved – this equates to power.  I’m less vulnerable and less dependent on others.  No one needs to speak for me.  Likewise, no one can manipulate what I say for their own devices.  People know I can understand far more than I can speak.  I continue to deal with emotions privately and out of training hours, but I’m less concerned about offending those that overstep my boundaries and about being kicked out of an establishment.

Recently I was alone in the kitchen of a gym when a trainer came in.  My back was turned to him and he started flirting with me, as became customary.  I told him again, I wasn’t interested.  He then rushed me from behind and put me in a tight clinch – he’s both larger and stronger than I am, his body pressed so tightly against mine, I could barely move.  I tried to create space and once accomplished, I quickly grabbed a metal spatula and smashed him over the head with it.  He released me and said that hitting someone on the top of the head is really bad in Thai culture.  I told him trying to sodomize me was really bad in mine.

Cultural relations….

Not exactly what I wanted to say and it wasn’t said as delicately; I’m still working on the language…either way, this just made him like me more.  In another instance that followed, he approached me from the front. Again he put me in a clinch – this time grabbing and kissing my body – I bit him until I almost drew blood.  Again, this made him like me more….

I believe if any one of these men wanted to rape me, the offence would have occurred.  I feel the instances I’ve encountered, although aggressive were more about intimidation and coercion than rape.  For those of you who think perhaps the situation would be solved training at a gym with a number of Foreigners – instances as such have occurred when Falang men have been present at a gym.

Recently I decided to go the route of personal training – my kru and I alone at his home.  Instinct regarding his character coupled with the safeguard of some heavy hitters led me to him.  Perhaps part of my protection comes in the form of commerce.  The money I pay goes directly into his hands.  There is no middle man, no constant stream of people coming in – whether he gets paid or not is directly linked to his treatment of me.  To this date, there have been no problems.

I hope this has been beneficial.

More about Laura

I’m a Canadian who decided to quit my job, sell most of what I own, pack a suitcase, and skip continents to pursue a martial art I’m not particularly efficient in. A minimalist. A modern nomad. A kid who just likes having a good time.

My attraction to muay thai is that it’s an art with no wasted motion. It has been the greatest vehicle for my continual education. It’s incredibly challenging to me – both the physical and the mental game. The latter probably more so than the former.

Currently I’m in Bangkok training muay thai fulltime. The plan is to be here for a few years, but realistically, I have no idea where this path is leading, or what the timeline is. I like change and pushing my comfort zone. A lot. Nevertheless, muay thai will be the constant among the variables.

Be prepared for updates, rambling, video content and anything I’ve learned that I think may of use to you.

This hasn’t been easy, but so far, its been a pretty sick ride.

My website http://www.milkblitzstreetbomb.com/

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About Author

I’m a Canadian who decided to quit my job, sell most of what I own, pack a suitcase, and skip continents to pursue a martial art. A minimalist. A modern nomad. A kid who just likes having a good time. My attraction to muay thai is that it’s an art with no wasted motion. I spent four years in Thailand training muay thai fulltime. I still live a nomadic life and muay thai continues to be the constant among the variables. I document much of it all on my site Milk.Blitz.Street.Bomb. Be prepared for updates, rambling, video content and anything I’ve learned that I think may of use to you. This hasn’t been easy, but so far, its been a pretty sick ride.

135 Comments

  1. Wow, thanks for sharing such an insightful and yet under-discussed topic. In my work environment (Canadian military), things like this tend to happen. And I think in your case, it’s even harder to deal with, since the female-male ratio in muay thai is less than in the military. Furthermore, there are governing unions, third-party regulators in our military to protect women. Female staffs are adviced to be non-compromising sexually under any circumstance to any degree, because compromising would lead to bigger compromising next time.

    -Having said that, I know this is South East Asia, a place whose culture is very patriarchal. (I grew up in Vietnam so I know), so it’s a lot tougher for women.

    Don’t know if my comment helps you in anyway, but just want to say I appreciate your insight, dedication. Good luck

  2. Laura,I’ remember one of your post’s way back when you mentioned something about taking a guy back to your room near chuwattana. Apparently the lady threatened to tell the gym owner or something. If you knew the deal from when you were up north why would you risk going through it again in bkk? Secondly, did’nt you have a thai boyfriend when you where up north? Could that have been why they started spreading rumors? Thailand is the land of smiles and contradictions. I gave up allowing the thai to save face at my expense. They will take advantage of you as long as you let them or you put them in their place. The same as any other nationality of people.
    PEACE

  3. I know this is a serious article but…

    lol, it seems like you’re gonna have to carry a stick with you to keep those horny Thai men away. They must really like the way you look or something…I didn’t know Thai men we’re even attracted to caucasian women, from what i’ve read they have a pretty strict standard of beauty over there…

    Well hey, they are fighters, trainers or whatever, so it’s natural that they are starving horndogs, I’m just glad you are dealing with it and not letting it get in the way of your training no matter how much of a hindrance it becomes. I’m also glad you stomped it before it escalated to something really scary and/or life threatening, being polite and passive can only go so far, even Thais have to lay the verbal smackdown i’d imagine.

    Good read. I hope these trainers you’re talking about aren’t fat and ugly…eww, who wants to shack up with an ugly fat dude? Exercise your options laura, there are plenty of handsome socially-adjusted Thai men there i’m sure, if you’re into Thai men that is….Gotta remember also that most Thai fighters/trainers are of the lower-class. Might be expected……

  4. ldf,

    man. if u were my sister…….

    Tibun,

    white women are hot…. i dont know what youre trying to imply about standards of beauty at all. and lol at having a strict standard of beauty…..the horny trainers in question are probably fat, ugly, desperate, and most definitely ignorant.

    this is like lifetime meets muay thai. would make for a good tv movie.

  5. lol, yeah there should be a lifetime special like this, or some oxygen show. I honestly don’t know much about thailand aside from reading whatever people post online, seems like they like their own women, but i could also be reading the wrong stuff. Then again, there is also a difference between “liking” and simply wanting to #$@!!

  6. Hey LDF, thanks for sharing this with us. There is absolutely no excuse for that kind of treatment and in now way is this an excuse but perhaps a more wetsern friendly gym may have been a better choice? I think the more farang friendly gyms are a bit more acustomed and apporpriately trained in how to conduct themselves with farang students.

  7. Wow, an incredibly interesting post, thanks for putting yourself out there, ldf.

    I don’t know a lot about Thai culture, but here in the States where I am from, if a girl says no, that is usually the end of it. It was for me in my single days anyway.

    I find it interesting that the guys at the gym took your declines to their advances so personally, punishing you with rumors and bragging of non-existent conquests. It seems childish, and hateful. When I was a young buck if the girl said no, it wasn’t anything personal to me, I just moved on and tried to date other girls.

    It is difficult to imagine what I would have done in your situation, since I am not a woman and have never really been in a spot like that. I think I would have just left right away if I found out that I was being stabbed repeatedly behind my back. And especially when things got physical as you described.

    I hope the future will be better in this regard for you.

  8. Thanks for sharing the story, Laura. Good for you to be able to deal with such situations- you are after all traveling alone- brave girl! Sometimes it takes a firm hand to get the point across, saving face or not!

  9. Guys acting like sex crazed idiots is not exclusive to Thailand.

    Your story remeinds me of a situation I experienced,I had a girlfrind at work, we didnt tell anyone we were dating as the job was a gossip house.She was prettyhot and I constantly heard stories from guys about their crazy sex exploits with her, some of these lies about her were incredible.One guy said he boned her on saturday, and Im looking at him and thinking,”really, she was at my house all weekend”.
    When our relationship was revealed ,alot of guys came would up to me and tell me , oh I was just kidding about what I said about her,and,you know I was just playing right.

    Theres alot of pussies out there,handle your business the best way you can.Youre pretty young, you have alot of LIFE left to learn, and to learn from.
    Theres an old saying, It goes something like this,”the only thing a woman has in this world with is her reputation”.Youre in a Mans world over there right now,seems like you have some tough choices to make.

  10. Laura I am not an expert on Thai “culture” or how a Thai man’s mind works. Of course I have an opinion but it is based on generalisations,
    I don’t want to sound patronising as I enjoy Thailand (8 visits in the last 5 years) and it is my wish to make it my home in the future. When I visit I am always respectful that I am a guest and I try and accomodate their beliefs and behaviour with my own. However there is a difference and sometimes this leads to a parting of the ways. Most times its no big deal and we all get on with it – usually with the Thais shaking their heads at me and saying something too the effect “Farang Ting Tong”. I believe that Thais don’t really know what to make of westerners. I’ve found that this can be a good thing, and certainly in my case has led to few laughs – mostly at my expense. With regards to your situation Laura I really admire what you are doing. Being myself a fairly good age now I’ve seen my fair share of the crap that people get up to. It gives me hope when I see people (especially young people) go out and try and make thing happen for themselves, or try and have an adventurist spirit rather than sit and moan about life. I can only speculate as to what the Thai people (male or female) think about a western female travelling on her own, to the other side of the world, to train Muay Thai. I would say you are in a no win situation and the gossip and other behaviour is always going to be there. You obviously know this and you are trying to protect yourself as best you can. Hopefully you will succeed and stay safe.
    An incident that I witnessed was the following. I had newly arrived at a camp an was into my second day. I got talking to a young English girl (18 yrs) who told me she was leaving the next day for Cambodia. However the next day when I turned up for training the camp/trainers was all a buzz. I wasn’t sure what was going on until I bumped into the English girl that night. I was surprised to see her as I thought she would have been away. Turns out that the plan had been for one of the trainers to drive her to Cambodia. I’ll say here that the trainer was in his 50’s and all she thought was that he was being nice and giving her lift. Turns out that he thought something else was happening and had told his wife that he was leaving her for the young girl. The other trainers got wind of this and confronted her and this led her to put the brakes on the trip. I never got to meet the trainer as he left the camp in shame. So it just shows how our innocent actions/behaviour can be construed. I’m sure all the trainers looked down on the girl after this as I don’t think a Thai girl would have done the same as her by taking the lift, which to our western minds was all very innocent.
    Anyway be safe and sorry for the ramble.

  11. Just a few general things to note:

    Thailand is a developing country and is still heavily stratified socially.

    Thai women do not recieve the same opportunities in life as men and such, young Thai women often expect to be taken care of financially to a certain extent by thier partners.

    In Thailand being a boxer as many of you know is considered a lower or working class occupation.

    Because of this many Thai women eccpecially the beautiful ones will not usually consider dating a (Thai) boxer.

    Oh, and Thai men are crazy about white girls.

  12. Very sorry to read your story. It brings to mind the saying “Civilization is a thin veneer over the ape”.

    I was wondering if you ever had the idea of opening your own camp for women only? That way, you can hire and fire trainers. I’d imagine that Thailand is cheap enough to operate one.

  13. hey everyone,

    thanks for the comments, etc. i appreciate them all. hearing about other’s experiences, including the comment left by you, nonsense help. not just me, but i think everyone reading this post.

    the only way i think i can put this in some sort of context is that i believe different environments, be it the culture within a new country, city, neighbourhood, whatever call for new modes of behaviour/street smarts. what works/may be smart in one enviroment may be really stupid behaviour in another. although i write that i’m from toronto, toronto is the last place in canada i lived. i grew up in windsor, which is the canadian border city to detroit, u.s.a. at a certain age i was crossing the border and hanging with friends in really rough areas. ie. areas where people lived in houses with boards over windows and there’d be bullet casings on the pavement, etc. back then i learned a lot from my friends that grew up in that environment, enough where it probably saved me then and in the future. windsor was rough by canadian terms, but by no means was it detroit. i feel forever indebted to that – as i only learned and grew from those people.

    being falang, and trying to pursue our passion for muay thai in a new culture and being illiterate and not knowing the language is difficult. we all make mistakes along the way. my attempt with my writing is to continue what i learned in detroit and from growing up in an immigrant household – the act of giving – to pass on whatever it is i’ve learned to help others out. if this means what i write at one time, in the future seems naive or inane, if i’m viewed as stupid or not cool – i’m alright with that because that’s not the point. my hope is that others benefit from topics that i bring up/create dialogue and from my experiences, and the experiences of those who respond by means of comments on this site. it’ll only make our stay, our path in muay thai that much better, for us and for those we meet along the way – including our krus, etc. in thailand. we all will benefit from greater understanding/growth and ideally kindness.

    in regards to being at a more falang friendly gym….. friends of mine have complained about similar experiences at those gyms.

    i realize this sort of behaviour happens everywhere, that it’s not exclusive to thailand or to muay thai – it’s a reality. i just hope that people will make better choices for themselves from what i’ve learned/continue to learn. new environment, new rules – all of which, i’m still trying to navigate. i don’t have the same cultural ambassadors as i did back when i was hanging in my friends’ neighbourhoods across the border.

    please note, it’s quite possible even me writing about such matters, including this one will be detrimental in the future to me. to put this in perspective, i received a call tonight from someone who had a friend who tried to read this (neither can speak english and to what degree the one can read, i don’t know, but i suspect minimal). i may have just put my ass on the line. it’s some scary shit. enough, where, i want to bring that up, but can’t relay the details. and it’s also possible, i’m overreacting – again….new culture, new rules, language/culutural differences/difficulties.

    i try to be really careful with what i choose to write about and how it’s said, i’ve seen some nasty situations in my past, meaning outside of thailand that could have been avoided if people realized the dangers of their actions. having seen and lived through some of that, i just hope people stay on point – i don’t believe we should live lives of fear, i really believe that we will all benefit if we follow our dreams and our passions – and chances are, if you’re reading this, muay thai is one of yours.

    thanks again everyone

    *nakmeezy – your info is about as correct as it is wrong – but that’s alright. if your implication is that this could have been avoided if i hadn’t had a guy in my room in bangkok, then i don’ t know what to say, other than i highly doubt it. again, this doesn’t only happen to me and this hasn’t happened in one gym. there are a lot of nak muays in this country – i doubt i’m huge topic of discussion between gyms.

    having a guy in my room in bangkok, may have been naive – i’ll agree to that. why did i do it when i knew the deal in the north? because a lot of people lied to me in the norht about ‘correct’ behaviour and i found that area to be much more conservative than bangkok.

  14. ldf – I think you may be being a bit too patronizing. These people did nasty things behind your back and it seems to me that you blame most of it on a clash of cultures (which it very well could have been). I don’t care where anyone is from or what the culture difference is, if they would have done to me like they did to you I would have left, plain and simple. I just don’t need those types of events and/or people in my life. But these are your choices, of course, and I wasn’t there either. Just my .02. Best of luck to you.

  15. @ldf You totally missed my point. I know that no one called chuwattana and spoke about when you were in isaan. I wanted to know why would you do it again? Regardless of whether your in Thailand or America, women bringing guys back to their rooms is frowned upon(stupidly so) all over. No one desreves to be harassed anywhere regardless of what country there in. You seemed not to know where these guys formed a negative opinion of you and I asked if it could have been because you had a thai boyfriend while you were up in Isaan. Not sure if he was a nak muay but you left that part out of the story. You did mention gifts,late night phone calls,drunken rage etc. All which sounds like either he was dumb as hell or he was led to believe that he had a chance.

  16. LDF, that’s a really powerful article. Well what can i say, you’re a really brave girl to deal with situations like these and i apprciate your dedication to train muay thai despite of all these problems.

    But i would advise you to move away from the gym where you are being harassed like this for a long time. Ofcourse i don’t blame that gym particularly because of one guy’s actions and there are always chances like you have said of facing the same situations again in another gym too. But i beleive that there are more farang friendly gym’s where even if you stay for a long duration you won’t be facing any such problems. Phuket is the place and tourist spot visited by many farangs and ofcourse you know hell a lotta things than i do and don’t mistake me that i am trying to advise you.

    What this trainer guy did is really wrong and if you feel that you may be raped or somethinng like that please move away from that place. I appreciate your desire for training in the same gym and your likness for the gym but at what cost?

    I don’t know about other gym’s but TMT gym in phuket is really good and its run by an american guy and the atmosphere there is really kool as you also have MMA training going there alongside muay thai training and its done by an american guy and lotta farangs stay and train there all thru the year. I am not trying to advertise or anything like that but what i am trying to convey is choose any gym where saftey is also there along with good training. There is no point in regretting later and its always better to be preventive.

    Also remember that you went there for training muay thai and enjoying and not to be sad or having a bad mindset about things, so do whatever is necessary to get yourself out of situations like these. Also you don’t have to prove things like you are a good person and not a whore to anyone, if ppl think like that say fuck off and goodbye.

  17. Laura, While I am relatively new to muay thai (5 short years in) I only speak on what I know or what I get from the source itself. The post speaks to the issues of sexual pressures that you have had in thailand. You write as if you have not dealt with anyone up there and are totally clueless to where rumors could have come from. I can’t tell you how to write your articles,however if you had to ponder as to whether you should have written it or not,maybe you should’nt have. Not every response is gonna be an “attaboy” or “Great Post” You have to be able to take constructive criticism as well. In this case your article seems to omit information that is relevant. Please point out my misinformation and set me straight. If I were you I’d be wondering who the hell is this ‘nakmeezy’ and why does he think he knows anything about my personal life in thailand? Circle talking and putting up deliberate lies and misinformation is not my thing. At the end of the day it’s none of my business,however when you put your business out there on the net and MMT it becomes all who reads business for that moment. Honestly, women being pressed for sex is not new anywhere it is an unfortunate fact of life. I know that I’m on here to keep in the loop about the sport and not read about Sex,drinking,relationships etc. I’m sure there are guys here who could talk about experiences in pattaya,patpong and other unfortunate realities of thailand but if it isn’t about training,fighting,visa runs or other helpful info whats the point? Chew on that while I review our correspondence from when you first went to thailand. I would’nt want to be ‘misinformed”
    Later

  18. I see a lot of guys suggesting a more farang-friendly gym, well what’s there to stop other dudes in farang-friendly gyms to sexually advance on her? Afterall, farang-friendly or not, these gyms are still full of dudes, and chances are, they will be short on interacting with women. Even if the title “farang-friendly” is true, it’s still friendly to farang, not women-friendly. I don’t need to remind you that Thailand does not have the same attitude towards sexcism like the 1st world countries.

    From my epxerience, sexual advance done by men can be encouraged, enabled by a few factors
    -1: favours, gifts… it’s kind of like he buys his way into her pants, or at least, he pays his way into being “allowed” to try advancing. You know, to save face, or so to speak
    -2: gradual increment: he starts low, increases steady. First with more friendly touching, then more suggestive, advancing to the target’s territory.
    -3: extortion: negative , threatening behavious when the target doesnt respond as he likes…
    I’ll be a military officer sometime in the future, have taken a few courses on subordinate treatment, and listed above was the sign of sexual advance via manipulation.

    What I can advise you is to look in a gym where you don’t too much depend on them. With your interaction with others, be clear and firm with your communication. Say “No” when you mean it, and mean what you’ve said. Sexually-driven individuals tend to be easily discouraged when targets stand firm. Plus recognize the early actions as I’ve pointed out, combined with clear communication, I think you stand a great chance of not being bothered.
    I hope this does not deter you from Muay Thai

  19. Nonsense, the reason for suggesting farang friendly gym’s is purely for saftey. It does not mean that you will not be approached by guyz but chances of a rape or being sexually assaulted is low in such gyms than the one’s ldf has mentioned. The using of words such as rape in the article clearly describe’s the violent situations faced. It looks like one trainer almost physically abused ldf by hugging her etc. and these kinds of situations will not be faced in farang friendly gym’s. The main reason is farang friendly gyms are costly and mostly extract more money than any normal gym there and they don;t want to spoil their reputation by events like this. That is the reason for suggesting a farang friendly gym.

  20. This whole thread has gotten pretty ridiculous. Were actually talking about rumors,love quarrels,rape etc. And what muay thai gym has the lowest probability of being raped. Seriously? Point is People all over the world (especially men) can be aggro towards women. Breaking News! (some) MEN ARE PIGS!
    Now that we get it, can we trade padwork combos or clinch techniques? Jeeeezus!

  21. NAKMEEZY why are you trying to wash this under the bridge so quickly? I am not sure what your issue is with LDF’s article? The topic is pretty clear with the title ‘The Problem of Not Sleeping with your Trainer’?’ There’s tons of article son this very site about kicking pads. This is a very valid issue and one that obviously is not easy to discuss. In the past months or so I feel like I kind of know ldf a little and I am certain there is little to no reason for her to make up any of the things she’s detailed here.

    In regards to more farang friendly gyms: they generally don’t engage in that kind of bs ldf has experienced and sometimes are trained not to. That said as ldf very validly points out it still occurs even there.

    Lastly, I have to say I have heard pretty bad things about TMT recently from people that have spent time there. And in general the more hardcore and truly authentic MT seems to be a mostly BKK phenomena. Phuket is kind of a giant tourist trap.

  22. Also ldf to me has demonstrated very impressive restraint. She could have been much more retaliatory in her treatment of this issue than she was. The trainer better thank her kindness compared to the way the matter could have been handled.

  23. Stack thats because ldf knows she messed up too. Like Nakmeezy said theres two sides to every story.

    Im not saying this trainer guy isnt an asshole he odviously is. But im saying too that its likely ldf gave him the wrong impression through being unaware or by misunderstanding various social/cultural intricacies in Thailand.

    What would be very valuable to people eccpecially women reading this forum is if as well as this general warning about how sexually predatory some Thai men are,.. ldf could relay some of the cultural “do’s” and “don’t” in Thailand which she has come to be aware of,

    For example – ” Do not invite or allow some one of the opposite sex to you room ” – In Thailand this is as good as saying you’re having sex. Even if you’re not, everyone who saw, or knows this person went into your room will assume that you did.

  24. buuface – dude, this is 2010, not 1010. Are the people in Thailand so backward as to think that if you have someone of the opposite sex in your room that you are banging them? If so, maybe my dream of going to Thailand for training someday will have to be cancelled. There is a chance that I may meet a female over there that I would like to have a few drinks and perhaps (ooh) a conversation with in my room away from all the noise and whatever else. Hell, maybe I would even run into ldf someday and would like to talk to her after training IN MY ROOM (ohh again). That doesn’t mean that I am cheating on my wife or anything else and frankly isn’t anyone elses business. Sheesh.

    As for the social/cultural intracacies, this is plain old bullshit. If they want to treat ldf like this for basically nothing, so be it. It is up to her if she wants to deal with it. I would choose not to and would have left immediately, but that is me. It is up to ldf alone to choose the path of her future as it was for her past.

  25. That’s why they asked ldf “Was he ever in your room?”. Because even if THEY themselves knew better, they realise what a lot of other people will think, and assume.

    It’s pretty backward Dan, not so much in the big cities like BKK,Chiangmai ect. and its changing slowly, but in the smaller non-westernized towns, the places where a lot of people might idealize their ‘Authentic Muay Thai experience” this is the kind of attitude people will likely have to face, especially women.

    I’m not saying in any way that ldf deserved the way she was treated. And in no way do i agree with it.

    But “basically nothing” is an extremely relative concept.

  26. Dan, would you suggest that your daughter invite a man back to her room alone in a foreign country?(ever heard of Joran van der sloot?) I dont think you would. As far as the wife not caring about whether you bring a woman back to your room after some drinks for some chit chat I smell BS all over that one too. Back to ldf the whole scenario sounds like an abusive relationship where the guy does’nt get the point that it’s over. Point is LDF is holding back info Stevie wonder can see that. Post the whole truth or dont post anything at all. this post paints thai trainers as sex crazed rapists with bellypads on. Keep it 100 with your post It’s obvious that there’s more to the story.

  27. Guys i don’t mean to be rude or anything, but as far as thailand is concerned people have a general perception that you can get anything there easily for money and especially sex. If you check out any muay thai gyms websites you always can find a link about sex & fun entertainment that is available there. So like LDF has mentioned in her article, there are chances of people getting a wrong impression of inviting a man or a woman into their room. Most of the muay thai trainers are illetrate people and they misunderstand things easily. From my personal experience i can strongly support ldf’s point. When i stayed there i had friends hang out in my room often especially girls(expats) who trained along with me in the gym and in due course i heard comments from some trainer’s like i am banging them and even one trainer asked could you lend me one of the chiks haha which was ridiculous. Here i am talking abt farang friendly gym and you could imagine how things could be in a normal gym and that too being a female.
    Ofcourse phuket is a little more expensive place compared to other locations in thailand but i feel its a more safer place for expats.

    LDF if you are still staying in the same place where this incident occured i would suggest you to get out of there immediately bcos of lotta reasons. First is it looks like this trainer assole really wants to bang you and would go to any extent to accompolish that. This is clear from his actions of spreading false rumors about you being a whore. Second thing is despite of you staying in the gym for a long time you are still one expat girl alone there and the chances of defending yourself incase of situations like this is minimal. Better be safe than sorry.

    Also checkout the articles using the links below where ppl were sexually assaulted. I don’t mean to create a bad impression about anything but still these are the facts.
    http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/British-Woman-Raped-In-Thailand-t315011.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1216467/Taxi-driver-arrested-alleged-rape-British-woman-28-Thai-party-island-Koh-Samui.html

  28. LDF just saw the other article Japan week 4. Guess you have already left that place where these incidents happened which is a good thing. Good luck for your rest of the muay thai journey. And one more question is you have taken a student visa for going to thailand right, i remember that frm your previous article. Could you please give more info abt which course did you enroll for and which university. I have a plan to go there for a years time minimum and this info would be helpful. I am doing my own research on this meanwhile.

  29. Nakmeezy – I have had many business meetings where I actually want to talk to a female (I know! The horror!) away from noise, smoke and all the rest. Sometimes things need to be said in private if they are business sensitive. I have many business connections that are female. It doesn’t mean that I am hitting it with them if a meeting is held in a hotel room. If you don’t believe me, then I guess there really isn’t much more I can say.

  30. Most women don’t know how to straight up say “no”. That’s a male trait….Women dance around things, they play games….so to keep this from happening to you over and over you gotta take a page out of the man’s book and straight up shut down any type of advances no matter how innocent they seem.

    Alot of guys will see this as you being a bitch, but that’s the only way some guys-especially sexually repressed stalkers- will get the picture.

  31. wow nakmeezy, before i just thought you were misinformed, meaning getting details of my past posts mixed up – ie. when you wrote i had a boyfriend in isaan (i never have), etc. by circle talking – i didn’t mean gossip, etc. i meant, unless you get details down correctly (ie. reread the piece you’re referenced from a year ago) , there wasn’t much to say – we’d end up circle talking / continually discussing something without coming to some sort of understanding. found it difficult to answer your question on your second post because the facts/details supporting it weren’t 100 percent correct (including something about phone calls between chuwattana and isaan…?). . nonetheless, now i know you’re just talking smack. amazing you can call me a liar – why the hell would i write this piece? but believe what you want – your anger, contempt and assumptions say a lot about you.

    regardless, this piece is about training – about training in thailand- maybe not as it applies to your life – but this, again, affects a lot of women who are here for the long haul and who are serious about mt. they need to know about the possibility. a lot of people come out here for the first time really idealistic (including myself). i’m kind of tired of seeng people exploited. hence some of my pieces, including this one. did i really have to spell that out for you? and when did this become about you? don’t like pieces like this one – then don’t read them. ? you’ve been awfully passionate about this.

  32. nakmeezy,

    now i know who you are. you’re an american i was corresponding with/asking me about gyms when i was in chiang mai….yes?

    rereading through this whole correspondence on here again – assuming now you meant chiang mai when you wrote isaan in your questioning……

    i thought i had answered your question regarding why i thought bringing someone back to my room wasn’t a big deal in bkk – and no, me having a boyfriend in chiang mai approximately two years prior to me arriving in bkk had anything to do with the rumors. that’s what i meant when i wrote this statement:

    there are a lot of nak muays in this country – i doubt i’m huge topic of discussion between gyms.

  33. @ DAN from Maddison. If you think you can visit Thailand or any country and expect to do what you normally do in your own country is a bit naive. I would suggest that you do a bit of research or you may find yourself in the shit. Some things the Thais may find funny, or they may find gross, or it may downright offend them. I’m sure everyone knows about the drug situation in Thailand – having a bit of personal would probably get you a Police caution or a small fine in Britain. In Thailand you could get 10 years for the same offence. Lots of other things like females not allowed in the ring (some gyms overlook this or built a separate ring), females not allowed to touch monks, dressing appropriately when visiting a temple, signs of affection in public, taking your shoes off before going into temples/peoples houses, not being critical of King and Royal family, and probably a hundreds of other things.

    Its not how we view LDFs or anyones actions . Its how our hosts, the Thai people, view them. LDF gave an example in an earlier post about the reaction of her landlady to her for having a male in her room. To us an innocent act. Whereas the landlady is outraged and talking about getting the Police involved. I for one am extremely jealous that LDF is living her dream. But as I have said previously I dread to think what the Thais make of a single female doing Muay Thai whilst living, drinking and eating with the boxers.

  34. DAN – in no way would I visit another land and expect everything to be the same. I never implied that. I have visited many other countries and quite frankly enjoy other cultures. I did say that these people are acting quite childish and that I personally wouldn’t deal with their crap. That’s just me.

  35. I never question the validity or reality of your story I just said taht you had another story that was connected to it and it might have been worth to tell as well…
    As you see you misunderstood my comment and it didn’t make a liar….

  36. @DAN. Fair enough. No disrespect was intended.

    Thailand is a fantastic place but also in my opinion a very complex place with a lot of different layers. I don’t believe that I personally will every solve the puzzle. Every time I visit a light comes on in my head which makes me realise that maybe I’ve been a bit of a numpty in my previous visits. Like everything its a learning experience. So thanks to LDF for raising this subject and for her previous topics. All filed away as part of my learning curve.

  37. @ldf. I wrote up north first which was because I knew you were in northern thailand. Isaan is up north as well( north east?) Wasn’nt sure what province or city nor was I sure if it was the fact that you had a BF up there was the cause of the rumors WHICH IS WHY I ASKED! See my pasted question from the top of the thread below.

    Secondly, did’nt you have a thai boyfriend when you where up north? Could that have been why they started spreading rumors?

    If women dont want to be treated like they are easy then they need to conduct themselves in a manner that does’nt give that off. Having a man in thai is cool,taking A dude dude from the gym back to your room in a boarding house is NOT! Unfortunate and unfair but a reality nonetheless.
    Remember,this is the same country where you cant even step into some rings because of your gender.
    ONE

  38. @DANFROM MADISON. You never answered my question? EVER HEAR OF JORAN VAN DER SLOOT? Would you suggest your daughter take a guy back to her room in a boarding house alone?

    Lastly, business does’nt have to be conducted in a hotel room because of noise etc unless you’re doing business in a war zone. Normally legit business people have an OFFICE! If you’re a traveling business man normally the other party has an OFFICE or meeting point for you to go to. If it’s in a hotel it’s usually called a business center,lounge or something to that effect.

    And your sneaky offer/ invitation to get LDF into a hotel room for a “meeting” oozes with typical male slimeball BS! I hope your wife does’nt read these posts. See your post below.

    “Hell, maybe I would even run into ldf someday and would like to talk to her after training IN MY ROOM (ohh again).”

    There are a million places in thailand besides your room that you could meet up with ldf to hang out. Lumpinee,mbk,kao san and those are perfectly suitable and appropriate for meeting a woman for a friendly meeting.
    You slickster you!

  39. since there isn’t a post about it yet and everyone is busy being a grumpbag – anyone check out the coverage of the lumpinee champions event a fews ago on muaythai2000.com?

    thank goodness for rob cox.

  40. @ldf – I don’t give a shit what country your in – you still rock and it’s difficult to read the BS you’ve had to deal with. As for the minor nuances between cultures – the hard thing with being Canadian is we are far too polite. I found when I was there, and in Cambodia for that matter – my passive/aggressive Canuck nature didn’t do me any favours. I found that the abrupt/direct personality of the girl I was traveling with was far better received. When she would be abrupt with pan handlers I’d be embarrassed and all “I’m sorry” .. “no sorry” .. “no sorry” .. I was a broken apologizing machine!!! Where the other girl was just “look dude I said no” or she’d actually parrot back what they were saying. I was mortified – mortified!!! – as I took her actions to be demeaning and just plain rude! But that’s not how it was received. People took it as no and moved on (some even smiled at her almost like a mutual respect thing). With my politeness – it was seen as weakness and that there was potential to wear me down. They were right – I found I was suckered into many purchases that I simply did not want because I could not say no. Well at the beginning. By the end of it I was fierce no sayer!

    Well thanks for the tangent now get to the damn point …

    in regards to MT camps – I was at a “falang friendly” camp in Chiang Mai… we were all pretty much falang. I was easy pickings for many Thais at or affiliated with that gym not because I was female – but because I am a strong willed female, that is bold, don’t understand “gender roles” due to always working in a male dominated field, I talk and drink like a sailor, I fear very little, and all that coupled with being polite can be a recipe for disaster. ***Disclaimer – easy pickings did NOT mean that I slept with any of them as I didn’t… well there was one mishap with a fellow falang in a market – but that’s a horse of a different colour and not part of this discussion.

    I can see how North Americans can be seen as easy – fuck just pick up any tabloid, look at any of our movies – we are a very free society… yes the old – women are whores and men are studs is still somewhat present. But finally the term man-whore is finding itself in more frequent circulation as is, more importantly, the term boy toy which flips the gender role to objectify men. But if you think about the long road it took for women to get any rights in NA – shiesh – there’s a long way to go for other cultures to be forward thinking. Fact of the matter is – we all have agendas just some of us are more open about it.

    I’ve come to accept that as much as I love to travel to foreign lands – there are certain countries I will never go because I know my north american ideals will likely get me killed. I turned down an awesome job in the middle east simply because I knew I’d have an issue dealing with the bullshit because although I’d being doing all the work – my male manager would get all the credit because a female couldn’t hold a job of status and my ego would never allow me to shut the fuck up and accept that for a fat pay check.

    We learn from our mistakes (hopefully). And sometimes we have a courageous individual that forges the road and we can learn from their mishaps. I thank you lady for not only forging your own road – but as well – shedding light on the taboos of the land of smiles for all us falang females. Keep it up sunshine!

  41. Stepping back and reviewing ones actions in a situation and analyzing outcomes to interpret err is hardly “dumb” – quite the contrary. It is unfortunate that you’ve simply extracted that I blame my politeness for my actions as I honestly can’t even begin to comprehend where you’ve obtained that concept from what I wrote. All that was implied was that when you are too “nice” (to simplify) up front it can be misconstrued as interest and that coupled with a concern of coming off as bitchy and possibly offending someone that you know you have to train with regularly – can be all the right makings of a nightmare.

  42. i was just taking shots at canadians everywhere outside of canada. and on the internet. aside from the shit they say on the internet they are just as annoying in person.

  43. Ryukyu Damashi on

    Would you go to a hardcore boxing gym in Detroit, invite some fighters back to your room and expect noting to happen? Why would you think Thailand would be any different?

  44. Excellent point Ryuku. People need to stop living this Land of smiles fantasy. Thailand has good bad and ugly. First time I went I was thinking woooow they’re soooo nice! But 80% of the time they were trying to get my bread. Even little kids were schemeing on me. Once I realized what was going on and started barking on people that tried to violate me ,all was good. We spot suckers everyday in Brooklyn. It’s even easier for thai’s to spot one in their country. They Just look for the idiot wai’ing to little kids,cab drivers and bar girls. Ladie’s if you would’nt invite a dude you barely know back to your room in the west why the hell would you do it in a country where women get no props. It’s like me going to a klan rally and expecting to be accepted as one of their own. And then acting surprised when they don’t like “Come on guy’s it’s 2010 you mean to tell me you guy’s STILL don’t like blacks?” LMAO!

  45. From my experience when you train in Bangkok or Phuket it tends to be not only a major gathering of the best and focused fighters but also the creepiest and ego inflated people. This is why you should be carefull especially if you are woman. Being thai I’ve learnt its hard to trust a thai especially if he is a man as they are incredibly unpredictable.

    Advice: Basically stick with falangs.

  46. I want to say straight off that I was really impressed by this article and I applaud you LDF for all the effort you’ve put into these posts. They’re always thoughtful and illuminating and it is clear to me that you’re intention is not to be deivisive but to get information out there and to share what you’ve learned on your journey. This piece had the same resonance for me as “in search of a kru” — which I remember reading and identifying with alot at the time.

    Like you I’ve came to Thailand to train and have lived here since — about a year and a half now. My life here is pretty focused around muay so my experience has largely been with this culture and the people connected to it — though I have spent a lot of time with different Buddhist groups and know some high-so types as well. I am a woman too — British-Canadian. I’ve also lived in different countries and thus learned a bit about different cultures. And I’ve had a similar experience to your Detroit days when I lived in the Jamaica for a while as a teenager.

    I want to back you up here — it seems as though most of the comment-makers are men. As a woman, I can say that this kind of stuff happens here and I’ve experienced and seen it with my own eyes. It has nothing to do with being naive or acting inappropriately. It’s a very complex subject and I thought LDF you did great to break down as neutrally as you did.

    I’m going to share a story here that I hope will give another angle to what you’re talking about. One time pretty early on in my stay I was with my trainer and his wife and their son and we went to visit a friend of his — a police chief in a small town a few hours from BKK. We were staying in a resort hotel by the river and talking at the tables outside the rooms. My trainer and the police chief were drunk on whiskey, and my trainer ended up getting into an argument with his girlfriend. They disappeared for a while while he pleaded with her to forgive him.

    In the meantime I was left with said Police Chief (PC). I tried to excuse myself politely saying I was going to bed, but he asked me to stay and talk with him until my trainer returned. I agreed — thinking that as our host it would be rude to leave him alone. But then he started asking if he could kiss me. I said no and started to talk about his family — hoping to snap him out of his delusion. But he persisted and got up to advance towards me. I remember seeing his gun on the table and hearing him say he’d never been with a farang before. I actually ended up clocking him to get him away because he wouldn’t listen to my NO.

    The next day he was very contrite and apologized profusely. In the morning I told my trainer and his girlfriend and we split town right away. It turns out she knew what was going on and that’s why she was furious. PC made it known that he fancied getting with me and because of the whole complexity of status and saving face my trainer was unsure how to act, how to warn me or how to intervene.

    Anyway like LDF has clearly said — this is not always going to happen. In fact it might never happen. There are alot of great trainers and very kind and respectful men here. I’ve never felt like people had my back more than I do here in Thailand for instance. When I hit some really hard times here my muay family all looked out for me in a way I had never known before.

    But there are these occasions when it happens and women would do well to be aware of it. Awareness can help alot. WHen you are still struggling to learn the language and connect with the culture it can be difficult — especially if you are doing it alone, as LDF has done. I don’t think anyone has touched this subject anywhere so it’s good information.

    I’ll also say that as a woman, I think finding a trainer who you have that bond with and who doesn’t want to get with you is a real journey — a process. Tha’s why I loved the “In Search of a Kru” article. It really resonated with my experience. A trainer-student relationship is such a special one and to find one that you really connect with is a real gift. I think it can be a little bit more challenging when you are a woman just because there is that potential for sexual attraction to become more of a focus than the training itself. And of course that can go both ways. You might find you want to get with your trainer — I’ve seen that happen too.

    Anyway again LDF fantastic job. Thanks for all your insights and information. You said that you wanted to open a dialogue and I think you have done great to do so.

  47. Hahaha probably this is one topic in this site with the highest no of responses from the people. Always controversial topics are good.

  48. Good god… apologies for the late response. I’ve been away for bit, it’s taken some time to get through the comments. LDF as always putting it out there… I know it’s a tough subject. I feel like I’ve got a pretty good handle on Thai culture and customs… but every once in a while I’m taken back by something a nak muay will say.

    Not going to open that can of worms. As always LDF… thank you for your voice and perspective.

    Koolkick- There is a post here with 165 comments… but it’s made up mostly of unintelligible dribble.

  49. Oh and LDF as much as i mean no disrespect. What i am about to say is harsh and will in no way be seen as constructive critisicm. But as a casual reader/casual mt student. The article was simply too long for me to even attempt to fit in my lunch break at work. I think you could probably increase quality of the article by summarising a little more, i can appreciate how easy it is to go on a rant.

    I was put off reading the article by the length and the somewhat melodramatic title. Perhaps you dont care what the casual reader thinks and thats utterly fair enough, but you would certainly have one more reader if the article didnt feel like it would take forever and a day to read it.

    Short and snappy, So i dont feel like i am opening a degree students essay paper. Sorry for the offence this will undoubtedly cause.

  50. @weltonia Yeah that’s me. Unfortunately I went through a period were I was going back and forth with those guys about a misleading video they had on youtube where some inept MT wanna be was helping promote 52 at Muay Thai’s expense. I was a big cyber defender of our art. Now I just let these guys run their yaps and laugh at them.

  51. GorillaPalmz on

    hey laura. thanks for sharing your experiences here. traveling around thailand as a young woman trying to participate in a male dominated sport must be rough. from your blogs and other female input on this article and your other articles, i have to say, i would advise young women NOT to go to thailand on their own for extended periods of time if their main focus is muaythai. short periods of time at farang camps seems ok, because i personally know lots of girls who have done it, but the longer periods of stay seem not worth the trouble. for all that headache, the western world produces better muayying than thailand anyway. in any case, stay safe, enjoy the rest of your trip.

  52. @Nakmeezy. What made me laugh the most was how the guy narrating the video couldnt see how much his guy was getting schooled and how the only reason he walked away with his legs intact is because you where throwing so Gently. Hard to prove a point when you cant throw with enough power to make someone realise what those kicks mean. Good fucking job though. Wearing jeans too man.. Good fucking job.

  53. Ok here’s my 2 cents. And there’s a lot of rhetoric being tossed around here and so please understand this is my best attempt to sort through it.

    What laura says is very valid. And she brings up a very valid point for consideration: How much disbelief can you suspend to truly believe camps are sharing a one time meeting in her room from a year ago? Personally I find that highly unlikely but then I really haven’t witnessed much in the way of conspiratorial efforts against farangs training in Thailand.

    In regards to this meeting I actually asked a Thai trainer here who has spent the majority of his life, living and fighting in Thailand in Muay Thai gyms over there. What he said was while yes there can be an alluded meaning from a meeting in a room he said and I quote ‘Only old ladies really go by that’.’ I then asked him if Thais know how to conduct themselves with farang women in an appropriate way he said yes they receive specific instructions on what you can and cannot do in very explicit instructions from the camp owners. He also said there are always some that ignore it. This Thai is also a high level trainer in both Bangkok and Phuket. So there you have it. Context matters but the rules are pretty clear for the most part according to him.

    Overall my impression is the whole room thing is something of a red herring since there seems to be a rush to defend inappropriate behavior of the gym staff. While I also got the impression that this is a somewhat isolated incident it’s by no means a rare one.

    What Laura offers here is exactly what a lot of regular MMT readers seem to want more of which is a heads-up or things to be aware of warning.

    Its hard to believe some people are capable of what they are capable of. But on that topic I can only say never underestimate peoples’ baser instincts or capacity to act amorally. Even I am shocked by it at times. But it doesn’t discount in anyway the validity of what she says. And I for one believe every word of it.

    Now in regards to the meeting itself and some of the snide remarks about it. It would make sense to have a closed door meeting depending on the content of what is being discussed and as Dan says to avoid the white noise of your surroundings. I could also have the same meeting and trust me on this NO ONE would mistake it or anything else than a closed room chat because I am 100% sure ldf has anything other than a topical interest unless she likes them ugly and dumb than never mind.

    I realize this topic is going to likely remain a heated one and that we all want to believe in the moral high ground being held by its teachers but the reality of it is, its not always the case. But resorting to personal attacks is sort of a waste of time and trust me I am as guilty of it as anyone. We should all be more concerned about extracting truth and discussing known facts. To me that will be an overall more useful exercise than pursuing red herrings to ‘win’ an arguement.

    To me I don’t find anything that especially controversial in any of ldf’s statements nor do I find them especially upsetting enough to resort to a personal attack against her or Dan. Just my take but anyhow thanks again for the writeup ldf.

  54. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH i just saw that 52 blocks vid….

    since when the fuck do black people on the east coast go one and one and fight with their hands? i thought they martial art was barking.

  55. @ Stack. I never said that there was a conspiracy against ldf between camps based on a one time meeting a year ago I only asked if the rumors could have started because she had a thai boyfriend when she first arrived up there. I did’nt know if it was the same town province street or anything which is why I ASKED. The answer could have been No,totally different part of thailand,no one knew I was dating or a host of other answers that would have answered the simple question I asked. And thus squashing all rhetoric to come afterwards. As far as Dan from madison goes, nothing personal there either. He chose to not answer two questions relative to the whole single female in a foreign land alone in a room with a dude topic. All is good until it goes bad. Meaning- Trusting strangers in a strange place can end up great. But the few times it goes bad it can be Joran Van der Sloot bad. And thats pretty bad.

    @SE What does that even mean?

  56. “@ Stack. I never said that there was a conspiracy against ldf between camps based on a one time meeting a year ago I only asked if the rumors could have started because she had a thai boyfriend when she first arrived up there.”

    How likely do you consider that? I honestly find it highly doubtful at best.

    “He chose to not answer two questions relative to the whole single female in a foreign land alone in a room with a dude topic. ”

    Hence the red herring portion of the discussion I am referring to. That question was completely unfit even as a rhetorical one.

  57. I found it very likely in the absence of ldf’s setting the record straight on the bf issue. Was he a nak muay from the camp? Did she keep any of the gifts that were ‘purchased” she never mentioned whether she did or not. That is pretty relevant. If she did then maybe there was something there or that could be the reason he did’nt get the point when she said she was’nt interested. These ommisions will lead one to beleive that the whole truth was’nt told here.
    Either way this is a dead issue. And who makes you the authority on what is fit from what is unfit to ask? Especially on an open forum.

    Good luck with your muay thai training.

  58. I mispelled believe. Either way, I have shown restraint in my posts relative to this subject. I like the high road and will try to find my way back to it.
    Peace

  59. The bf thing has no bearing on a concerted effort to spread a rumor over many camps. You guys made up the scenario and thus it falls upon you to make it remotely plausible which well, good luck with that. How are these omissions? Because they came from your e typing and not hers?

    Sorry but because your proposed position never happened doesn’t mean its omitted.

    For Dan: It’s an unfit question because it’s completely outside the realm of known facts: its from your imagined scenario and at what point did a family member have anything to do with ldf’s position? Looks like never to me. By no means do I authorize your logic as unfit just normal rational thinking can determine that from anyone not insane or trying so hard to guard a dishonorable act as something better than what it is.

    You can’t argue a weak unsound point with no logic behind it into a valid one.

    Good luck with your muay thai training.

  60. Again it was a question. I doubt that he would want his daughter or any other female he cared about meeting with strangers in hotel rooms. Imagine if his wife wanted to meet with a stranger she “knew” from an online community in a hotel for some chit chat. I dont think any man would go for that nonsense. As for ldf. How do you know it never happened? Were you there? Neither one of us were. So my question to her was just that A QUESTION. Like I said before,it could have been squashed with an answer from the get go. Lastly my point is not unsound or weak.
    Women need to be careful when alone with strangers.
    Accepting gifts from men that like you will lead them on.
    Assertively declining the first gift will ensure more “gifts” will not be purchased.
    Meeting strangers in hotels for women is dangerous
    Inviting women you dont know to hotels as a man can be seen as opportunistic,predatory and un gentlemanly. (is that even a word?)
    Dancing around a question will only make you seem as if your hiding something.
    If these are weak and unsound points please tell me how.

  61. To be clear if you bring up your pretend scenario in regards to her topic the burden proof falls upon you to make the scenario believable not upon her for reporting a true event.

  62. Now you’re suggesting that i’m fixated on someone’s daughter? Thats pretty gay. As far as 52 is concerned yes it is pretty useless and has more of a comedic value than anything else.
    By the way stack do you fight?

  63. Seems apparent since no one really mentioned anyone’s family member but you thus far. Thought that was a bit odd. Nonetheless my point stands on trying to get ldf to elaborate in any detail about a fictional account.

    To quote Jeff Foxworthy: Useta could, cain’t no more.

  64. ldf was a bit hard to get in touch with yak, but he finally picked up his damn phone. let me know when you would want to visit him so i can get back to him

    pbijl 82 google mail

  65. Great article, although I was a little confused at the start about the phone call thing :p
    I think this is a really sensitive subject which is going to cause a lot of controversy.
    Some of the comments have pissed me off somewhat :/

    The majority of comments that are negative ones are left by men of course, I don’t see how a man can try to understand a womens experience in a male dominated sport in a country which is actually years behind 2010 as far as sexual equality goes.

    Some of these comments remind me of the common misconception of rape and whether the girl ‘deserved’ it or not, some people will say about a girl who dresses provactively that she ‘deserved’ it because of the way she dresses or acts. Some of you are implying that LDF has led these guys on, or she must have done something to cause all of this. There is NOTHING you can do to stop these things from happening, sure being more assertive helps.
    My Thai friend told me about a guy who used to go around raping girls that is how he would get his women, they would actually fall for him after that! no shit! have you guys ever watched a Thai soap programme? where the guys force the girl into something and eventually she gives in and kisses him and it is made all romantic, thai guys are used to the girls playing hard to get and as LDF is very polite and not very assertive I would imagine they think she is playing hard to get and is interested.

    I have always prefered the company of men and I think most girls taking part in a male dominated sport are going to get on with men more because they share the same interest. So as for having guys back to your room, are you implying that LDF goes through her experience not having any friends at all? or only hanging out with girls regardless of whether she likes them or not?
    Nakmeezy, do you sleep with every girl that enters your room???!!! you sound very sexist and arrogant to me, have you been to Thailand before and for how long?

    I used to have a very close relationship with my trainer when I trained in the north of Thailand. He was a very good man and was like a father to me, yes whenever he visited me at my place he insisted I left the door open and I never understood why because where I am from we do not like to leave our doors wide open so that anyone can walk in…now I know why, he never told anyone we slept together, (not that I know of), and if he did I couldn’t care less because my training was not affected. However, many people thought he was my boyfriend because I SAT ON THE BACK OF HIS MOTORBIKE!!! then when I sat on the back of another guys motorbike I WAS CHEATING on him HA HA I just had to laugh at this, it just goes to show how different the way of thinking is in Thailand. In western countries we can have close realtionship with guys but I don’t think this is possible in Thailand, maybe it is but you will always have people gossiping about it.

    Then the next thing that has annoyed me on these comments is people saying to go to a farang friendly camp. It has nothing to do with what type of camp you go to, I have had this problem in England and Thailand. I always thought and still do think that I do something wrong. My first trainer when I was 14 (training TKD) was completely obsessed with me and there was a lot of bullying and manipulation involved, I never understood why until my mum told me he had informed her on my 16th birthday that he was in love with me, (him being 34 and married!).
    When I went to Thailand after I left my first camp in Thailand, (which I trained alongside LDF at), because it went downhill, I went to another camp in the North of Thailand,(all Thai camp). When I first went there the training was amazing, basically one on one with everything, then my trainer started to show interest in me. I said I wasen’t interested and had a joke about it…basically a Thai guy will almost always try his luck, it is natural for them to flirt as most are not used to speaking to women in any other way, so I would usually try and brush off any comments and forget about it. He didn’t understand why I wasent interested, he alreay had a Thai wife, (who lived with him in the gym), and a child with a Japanese girl and also had just impregnated a 16year old international student which was a great accomplishment so why would I not be interested? Well this is the first time it happened where my training started to suffer after a week of me joining the gym, I fought with the gym and he did not turn up or show interest, after my fight I left.

    Sometime after I went to a number of gyms in Phuket, I thought (by mistake), things would be different in Phuket as they cater for Farang they will understand us more and accept us more. I went to a popular gym in Phuket, and things were much worse than I had ever experienced. I made friends with a girl there who got excellent training as she was in a relationship with her trainer, this was allowed and accepted in this gym which I thought was strange as most places won’t allow it. The first time I met her trainer he was flirting with me, but again I accepted it as normal. My friend was right there and I don’t know if she knew what he was up to as she doesn’t speak Thai but she probably did. Anyway from the beginning I made it pretty clear I was not interested. Then his girlfriend went back home for a few months and he got really flirty. I kept turning him down and then it got to the point where he was making fun of me and seeing as he seemed to be in charge of the other trainers and they looked up to him, he would tell them to leave me till last on pad rounds. I didn’t get much attention at training and was most days doing about ten bag rounds before I got to go on pads, then he would tell me how crap I am because I have no energy and why am I so crap at everything. Then along came another one of my friends for training, who he ended up getting with,(whilst still being with my other friend who had gone home). She of course got great training and I was constantly compared with her, why I am I not like her,(even though she has many more fights than me), etc. A lot of it was mental bullying and you can say I am weak or whatever but it was upsetting and hard when you are exhausted from training. I tried to tell the camp owner who was furious and gave this guy shit, the owner really treied to help but it aqctually made things a lot worse with this guy…I did not mention to this owner about the time where this trainer showed me his penis TO CHEER ME UP!
    I think I felt bad for complaining and I felt like I was being a burden and should have been more forthcoming to see results.

    This sort of issue really needs to be discussed and I am so glad LDF is speaking out about it. I spoke to one girl who had gone to this gym and she had a really good experience there, she asked me why I did not like it there and I went into detail, (much more than I have wrote here), about what had happened. She got really angry with me and said people like me spoil it for people like her who had a good experience there! WTF she asked and I answered, why do people feel like this sort of issue needs to be brushed under the carpet and why do they make girls like me and LDF feel like it is our fault? and we encouraged their behaviour?! I actually humiliated this guy (speaking in Thai), in front of all his fellow trainers because he was being so cruel to me and he still showed interest in me,(whilst being in a relationship with two of my friends), so how is that not being assertive enough? Before anybody says it I was not being over sensitive because all the other farangs at training noticed how he was with me and questioned mer about it and felt sorry for me.

    About LDF….I don’t usually get on with many girls but she is one of the nicest most genuine women I have ever met in my life, I love chatting with her and really enjoyed training with her, I doubt any of what she says is Bullshit or half the story, this girl is very open about her experiences and very honest which is why we get on together. I look forwards to hearing more of her experiences and wish I could write in the way she does about my own experiences…lots of the girls I have met who are training and fighting in Thailand have similar experiences but we don’t always hear about them, hearing about them reminds us muayyings that we aren’t crazy! So well done for this insightful article LDF :)

    I think the best idea for a woman training in MT is to either do as LDF has done with her training or to train at a camp where there are other thai girls, (who are quite unlikely to have interest in their trainer), and/or a gym which has strict rules against trainer/student relationships, obviously trainers are going to try their luck if farang women usually throw themselves to these guys and if you are in a gym where this is constantly happening and the trainers are always getting with the trainees then obviously the trainers will not understand when you reject their advances :p

  66. No, not sexist.
    No I dont have sex with every girl that comes back to my room.(I dont bring girls back to my room)
    Been to thailand 6 times since feb 07
    This topic is a dead horse.

  67. how is this topic a dead horse? because people have put valid points against you and you have nothing of any intellect to say back in return?
    i’m guessing that you have never had a close friendship with a woman right? I have had plenty of men at my place,thai and farang, we have sat and had conversations, none of them even tried anything not every man is sex obsessed some like conversations with women…did you stay very long in Thailand on your trips? long enough to see how women are treated?

  68. I’m assuming also that you do not support women in muay thai? or equality of the sexes right?
    This topic is very valid for us women and it’s something that needs to be spoken about… women need to feel safe when training, we save our money for years to train in Thailand not to get a bf who will scroat off us and treat us poorly, we can find that at home, why should our training be affected because of our gender? why should we be discriminated against because we want to train and not whore ourselves out???

  69. No I did not leave the gym straight away…I was getting free training and free room and only had 500pound left, I wanted to stay in Thailand and fight and the gym owner had treated me very well. I know I should have left sooner in the end I realised being told how crap I was at muay thai everyday and working on bags(being ignored by trainers cuz this guy was sorta in charge) was not worth it, I had lost my spirit. Also I have a thing for attracting flashers I just thought at the time oh here we go again :/

  70. Pugpup, if you and LDF were to join forces and raise funds to open a women’s camp, then you would be able to hire and fire trainers at will. I’m sure there’s plenty of other women who would join a camp like yours. I don’t know what the regulations are for farang to open businesses in Thailand however, so perhaps other posters can chime in?

  71. You would be wrong in assuming that I dont support women in muay thai. I actually think that more men should train as I have seen women train. In that I mean not focusing so much on power and being badasses and more on the beauty and technique of the art.
    I have had many close relationships with women ( women love me) I for one dont need to have them in my hotel room to chill and hang out. Besides the fact that I usually have thai shorts drying in my room, the smell of nam mun muay and other things that a women may not find inviting in my room.

    I already told you I have been in thailand 6 times since 07 and I have seen how women are treated. It seems like the same bs that goes on in every other part of the world. Unfortunately thats a reality. Who said your training SHOULD be affected by your gender? If it is than that’s a shame and I would’nt train there if I were a women. You made the choice to stay and train in a land where some gyms wont even let you step in a ring. Is that ok? I think not. There are unfortunate realities to training in thailand. These include double standards based on race,caste system,nationality and even financial discrimination.
    Now to your story.
    You stayed at a gym where the trainer was trying to have sex with you and showed you his meat? And then you chalk it up to you did’nt have enough money to leave sooner and the fact that you’re a meat flasher magnet? Come on.
    Seems like your safety,well being and being made to feel uncomfortable took a back seat to free muay thai training.
    Seems like you need to get your priorities in order. Going to Thailand with no money just for muay thai is incredibly stupid and irresponsible. Especially if you will be treated poorly. For that,you should just stay at home and train there. I wanna hear the incredibly stupid ” just follow your dreams schpeel no matter the cost” Fuck that! Sell all your belongings and be a muay thai fighter for the rest of your life? NOT GONNA HAPPEN! The future for most who practice muay thai will be increased health and fitness. An elite few will go on to pro levels where they can actually support a family or parlay their succes into something more sustainable. Unfortunately some are doomed to earn 200 thb a day for holding pads for some fat ass tourist. What’s your ultimate goal in muay thai pug pup?

  72. Opening a business in thailand is extremely difficult. Alot more red tape,bribes and other nonsense to deal with. You actually have to include bribes and protection money for the police in your monthly business costs. I know nong toom along with a guy from new york have a camp somewhere in the south that is supposed to be really safe for women and children to train in. I think its parinya muay thai camp or something like that.

  73. pugpup, thanks for an honest and straight up answer without ignoring the question….

    you see when you tell stories like these its important you dont omit pertinent facts. theres always two sides to a story. and no matter what in order for someone to learn from it they need to know all the fucking facts. not saying anyone is right or wrong but thats how you need to approach the telling of a story if you genuinely want people to learn from your experiences.

  74. Nakmeezy thanks for your response it was more informative and less abrupt than previously. Yes you are right about getting my priorities right which is why I went home and have been working low paid jobs for two years so that I don’t have to be in this situation again, I was just adamant in not going home b4 silly I know.
    I don’t have any major goals in mt tbh,what about you? I don’t delude myself into thinking I can make a living from it, I am poor at mt but I want to gain as much experience in it and also

  75. sorry typing on my moby…
    also in boxing. Sure I would love to pick up a title who wouldn’t but the main thing for me is to do what makes me happy and it seems at this point in my life training is the only thing that makes me happy, sad I know, I don’t have set goals I just like to go with the flow.
    As for opening a gym in Thailand it is very difficult and I don’t think a farang can legally claim ownership, correct me if i’m wrong, so you need very trustworthy thai contacts.

  76. @Pugpup I had plans of opening a business in thailand about 1.5 years ago. It was extremely difficult for a foreigner to own anything over there. Furthermore finding a trustworthy business partner is even more challenging. As far as my goals in muay thai go, I pretty much love the art and beauty of it so winning was never a major goal of mine. I won a couple of amateur fights and now (due to work) only really get to train sporadicly at best. I want to fight at least 2 more time s before I get my nose and left foot fixed as both are broken. Muay Korat and muay chaiya are next on my to learn list. I would love to fight with some old school MT swag.
    Peace

  77. The fact that It was 1.5 years ago and all of the BS that was involved lead me to avoid it. Save your temperment analysis for someone you actually know. You came on here itching to respond to any comment that I made and it seems you have some sort of weird obsession with me. If you want to have constructive dialogue on issues or even debate issues,I’m all for that. What I’m not for is you trying to pick petty spats via the posts. If you want a flame war you can get that too. You bring alot to the table in terms of good articles and resources via your website. Continue with that and leave me alone.

    Muay thai is after all a combat art…….I asked you before if you fight. You did’nt answer. I’m still waiting……….Because if you do, maybe you can let out some of your aggresion in a ring. But then again your probably some lil nerd that sits behind the computer trying to piss people off.

    Your move.

  78. Pure comedic goodness:

    2 hours ago
    @StackMo1 YOU LOVE ME YOU LIL FAGGOT! NOW FUCK OFF. All you do is study real fighters since you’ll? never be one. HAHAHAHAHAHA NOW UPLOAD ME SOME MO VIDEOS BITCH!

    LOL someone didn’t like my message to stay off my channel.

  79. Wow stack,your obsession of me is deeper than I thought. Did you like my shirtless profile pic? Thanks for copy and pasting my response to you from youtube. Shows how much free time you have on your hands. Since you used to fight what do you say we link up and exchange some techniques and post that? You’re probably better at nuthugging others than you are at actual fighting. If you dont want to,I understand. Just post more vids of other fighters for me to enjoy. Have you ever even been to thailand to train?
    Lets see you in action.

  80. OH SHIT! I just saw your pic on your website. Take that pic down dude,you look like a klingon or something from the sci fi channel. Seriously though,you are a weird looking dude. No LOL here,I feel sad for you.

  81. Hey the videos are for everyone to enjoy, yes including you NAKMEEZY even tho you have no class and are afraid of homosexuals or whatever.

    So am I supposed to like you shirtless? Does that invalidate what I say because you think I can some how make your homosexual expectations of me? or maybe you think you can kick my ass into thinking you actually know what you’re talking about? Or maybe you think talking tough is just going to make your baseless rants on me and other members have substance? You realize I’m not some kung fu guy right?

    Link up? Sure Jamel any time. Since you’re a class act and all and have done so much for the new combined sport of Muay Thai and 52 blocks that’d be awesome.
    My message was pretty clear 1. You’re a wannabe and 2. you should stay off my channel but the homosexual desires on your ppart I guess were the added bonus.

  82. nakmeezy seems good from what i saw. he looks pretty fluid with decent speed. good footwork. i never got to that level in my training. i might have a chance in a street fight though. then again dude is bigger than me.

    any vids of your fights nakmeezy?

  83. lol stack youre right it does show 52 blocks as his hobby. hahahahaha.

    yo nakmeezy whats up with the 52 blocks cat calling you out? why didnt you fight him?

  84. @SACK The world only awaits for this bickering to end. But we can keep going as long as you want. Copy and paste anything I said that was remotely racist. As far as a phobia of gays goes,thats pretty ridiculous as well, since I could give two shits about what they do. Your man crush on me is a little disturbing . It’s cool though. Judging by your humanoid features I would guess you’ve never been too popular with the ladies. You kinda look like a hairless version of the Geico caveman. Or even an aggro teletubbie (the purple one).

    So you dont do kung fu mr Lng. Thats good, So If you prefer to yap on the internets as opposed to settling this I understand. Unfortunately your character is becoming as unnatractive as that mess between your huge ears you call a face. Uriah fabers butt chin would be an improvement for you. Upload one of your fights so we can all see the authority on all things in muay thai in action. You will find out that muay thai is not so easy that a caveman can do it.
    Tot Ziens!

    @SE I challenged the 52 guy,he accepted and then backed out. I fought a guy from a horrible mma show on bet called the iron ring instead. He does Bagua Zhang and at one point challlenged nick thompson of strikeforce fame. At the end of the day I tried to give 52 a chance but I have never saw anyone use it in a fight. So it took a back seat to muay thai chaiya and muay korat.

  85. Hi Jamel I knew you would respond with some more offers of homosexual romance or another weak e-challenge. My point is made and I honestly cannot make you look more stupid than you already have made yourself.

    The world according to Jamel is very defined within these very comments about how quick you will stoop to any depth to ‘win’, one cursory look at your youtube channel shows that Muay Thai is little more than an exercise in ego fufillment for you. Here’s how it goes: make up a scenario to ‘win’ an arguement, vehemently increase banter to include family members, facts come and its apparent you have no leg to stand on then the crying begins. How old are you 12?

    I am sure you will bring your best retorts about homosexuals, how we should fuck and let you suck me and so forth but it kind of insults you more than me or turns you on or something.

    So I already answered your challenge so you can kick my ass and make yourself not look dumb (because you know that’s how it works). You can even bring your helmet and moon boots. Oh wait now is the part where you tell everyone how much you like women and say something about my appearance. Funny part is you’re so stupid you could have found my photo right on this site where I shared it to begin with.

    As I said on your channel most people from Sitan aren’t ego feeding retards but there’s always one in there. Sitan in fact is a pretty decent gym. And yes you are a wanna be. You already said you don’t live for the sport and will have 2 more am fights and be done. But in the same space you make sure everyone understands how holy shit the women love you, you were going to start a business there and despite making fantasy arguements you have nothing against women in Muay Thai. That’s pretty much a wannabe even by your own definition.

    Hahah pretty comedic and thanks again for bolstering my point that you don’t seem to have the temperment for business. Go to Junior College and prove me wrong but as I said you don’t seem to.

    Lastly calling me SACK hahaha good to know you are slowly coming out of the closet and have interest in my sack so much so you cannot even get my name right. I remember this style being used against SE with pretty much the same results. You seem to want me to have a crush on you and are very eager to meet up. However your lifestyle while your own business isn’t one I share. Plus that whole racist thing and repressed homosexual fantasy thing is a weird mix. The alien thing is a hilarious insult when everyone here knows you mean Asian because that’s the only thing remotely alien about me.

  86. i think a forum/mb would be cool as long as it doesnt become a landfill of useless fights and bad vibes. more people need to smoke (more) weed. i dont even like weed but i feel marijuana is the ultimate answer to this battle.

  87. im high 90% of the time i post here…..

    nakmeezy is very interesting though….yo nak i was checking out that video you favorited by joe rogan talkin bout kung fu guys. HES TALKING ABOUT YOUR PEOPLES…. lmfao……black kung fu guys from the east coast….thats fukcing 52. straight up. glad you chose muay thai.

  88. @SE LMAO AT THE JOE ROGAN VID. Nah man,those are’nt my peeps. I actually fought one of the guys he is talking about. Pretty much proves to an extent that most of that stuff is crap. Except sanda.

  89. There’s alot of things that contribute to this i would think, and i don’t think you’ll ever truely get away from it. I think alot of it stems from the fact these guys grow up in the gym, with other guys, they don’t ever hang around girls and really i don’t think alot of them know how to interact properly in normal social situations…even in thailand. Then you add to it thais love to drink/ some do yabba and depending on who it is, they get really crazy. Then you add to that, that sleeping with a falang women is like a trophy to them and it kinda all just balls up into one bad situation.

  90. now the word is out and knowledge is gained im sure women will still put themselves in danger…..

    Knowing this i wouldnt let any girl i cared about go train alone in thailand without a close assertive friend with common sense. If “the dream” involves putting yourself in precarious positions that could be avoided than thats stupid. extremely stupid.

  91. Victim blaming and class discrimination. Come on guys.

    Also I don’t like the idea of blaming culture instead of blaming men acting like assholes.

  92. Very well said Kabbakick…
    yes there are many contributions but that does not excuse the behaviour EVERYBODY knows between right and wrong.
    Why should women suffer and not be able to do what they wish to do? and the guys all get to go and train and have fun? you just have to be smart and learn from your experiences and notice the early signs….speaking with other girls and hearing their experiences makes women who are coming to Thailand more aware to notice early signs of bad behaviour and how to react.
    So, I suppose I better go lock myself away and never do anything in case I run into some asshole right? I don’t think so…you can have all the common sense in the world but nothing prepares you for certain assholes in ANY country. It isn’t just Thailand that has dickhead trainers like this, I have ran into these type of guys in my own country too…..it is much easier to realise the early signs of what is going on when you understand the language and the way men are with the women in whatever country you are based in at the time! (if that makes sense lol, wasen’t sure how to word it)

  93. chiangraiken on

    For starters, Thai men are emotionally immature. They’re quick to anger, jealous, and they tell lies easily. Why are there not female coaches for females? Thai men should not be allowed around farang females because it’s too likely they will revert to their childish disrespectful ways. It’s like putting wild dogs with a city poodle. Every thai woman who has been steady with both farang and with Thai men, will always choose to be with a farang man subsequent times. If you don’t believe me, ask Thai women. I’m sorry the Canadian woman who wrote the story had to suffer so much. It’s also sad that the Thai women who heard her story were such soppy wimps who didn’t want to hear the truth. If you want to be with mature manly men, you should hang with farang men. If you want to hang with little boys in men’s bodies, hang with Thais. I hope you learned your lesson.

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