Ram Muay To Ram or Not to Ram?
February 23, 2007 by nopstar
The other day I overheard some people at my gym talking about the Ram Muay. Somebody asked why one of our fighters doesn’t perform the Ram Muay before his matches. The short answer that was given was it’s a Buddhist thing and he isn’t Buddhist.
I just want to come out and say that the Ram Muay isn’t Buddhist. This just isn’t true. (I’ll explain this later) Personally it bothers me when Muay Thai students don’t perform the Ram Muay. Go on any of the message boards and you’ll see comments like “Only Fan Boys do the Ram Muay” or “I wouldn’t waste your time with it”. If that’s your rational for not doing the Ram Muay then go to a kickboxing gym.
I’m not here to bring up the Sport vs. Martial Art debate; you guys can go to the forums to do that. Personally I think the Ram Muay helps strengthen the bond between Muay Thai and Martial Art.
I think if you consider yourself a true student of Muay Thai, it’s all or nothing. Anyone can learn to throw elbows and knees; it doesn’t make it Muay Thai. In addition to training, Muay Thai is about humbling oneself and respecting one’s teachers. In Thai culture Teachers are given the utmost respect, they are regarded as your second parents.
History
The Ram Muay can trace its beginnings to the battlefield. Soldiers would perform a version of the Ram Muay before battle. In times of peace these combat forms and rituals evolved. Siam, at the time lacked decent roads and traveling was a dangerous and arduous task. Because of this isolation the several styles of Muay Boran developed and branched off into different schools. It was said that one could identify the style, school and teacher of the student by the Ram Muay that was performed.
Purpose
In addition to paying ones respects the Ram Muay was said to also serve these practical purposes:
- Time for prayer
- Survey the ground that they were fighting on.
- Psych out their opponents / Intimidation
- Time to oneself, focus
- A warm up before the fight
Not a Buddhist Ritual
As for the bowing yes, we Buddhist do the triple bow, but for entirely different reasons. In Buddhism you are bowing to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. In Muay Thai:
- The first bow or prostration is for your country
- The Second for your religion
- The Third is for your King
Clearly if you’re an American you’re not bowing to your King. The triple bow can be adapted to make it personally meaningful. If you’ve never thought about doing the Ram Muay ask someone to teach it to you.
Many thanks to Wojtunio for the use of his pictures.
What are your throughts?
Ramon Dekkers didn’t do the Ram Muay. And he was a Muay Thai fighter all the way, if there was one! A lot of European fighters don’t do it. In fact, most fighters who haven’t trained in Thailand don’t do it. But that doesn’t make them “kickboxers” — that is a different and pretty useless *style*. Given that we have Muay Thai fighters who don’t indulge in the Ram Muay and still do pretty well, I’d conclude that Ram Muay’s relevance to Muay Thai is peripheral at best, not central. It’s a dogmatic tradition, like most other traditions instituted to preserve the “identity” of a martial art. I don’t think a style as obvious, distinctive and powerful as Muay Thai really needs that.
Souvik-
Excellent Point, I think this is a fairly good example of what I’m trying to say. Just because you box, you utilize knees and elbows and wear Muay Thai shorts… does it make it Muay Thai? In the same vain will you be a better fighter because you perform the Ram Muay? I argue no.
I believe that is defiantly not peripheral, that it’s at the very heart of Muay Thai. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I believe Muay Thai isn’t a just a fighting system but it is also an attitude.
Souvik thanks for commenting, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your perspectives. Keep them coming!
Not to go off on another tangent… but the other day I saw a thread arguing Kyokushin vs. Muay Thai and they were rattling off Semmy, Glaube et al. to demonstrate Kykoshin’s dominance over Muay Thai. I was thinking to myself yeah but they’ve adapted their particular fighting styles to incorporate Muay Thai style kicks and they box… so is that really Kyokushin anymore?
I also like to think that doing the Ram Muay is more dogmatic/traditional than a requirement of Muay Thai- like you said it was mainly used for,
“-Time for prayer
-Survey the ground that they were fighting on.
-Psych out their opponents / Intimidation
-Time to oneself, focus
-A warm up before the fight”
I can see all these being performed without the doing the Ram Muay. While I do like the beauty/tradition of the Ram Muay, especially when performed by Thais (Thais seem to do it better than non-Thais), I don’t see it as a “true” requirement. I may feel this way because I was never required to perform the Ram Muay by my teacher/instructor before. Also, I think that respect towards ones teacher/trainer should be a given.
Hope this makes sense.
interesting question.
being of thai descent, i empathize with the position that care should be taken to not strip muay thai of its cultural aspects in the name of pragmatism, as is the american way. it’s actually somewhat offensive to read opinions that come across as “that traditional stuff is useless and backwards, we’ll define muay thai however we like.”
on the other hand, being in america and not having easy access to trainers who can show me how to perform a proper ram muay, as well as not sharing certain cultural aspects you mention (like having a king), i understand why people are reluctant to make the ram muay a defining feature of the art; for people who don’t/won’t perform it, it would invalidate a lot of hard work, as far as being able to tie into a long history of successful muay thai fighters.
my muay thai teacher (who is white) says, “man, white guys just shouldn’t do the ram muay. it just comes off corny.” i can understand his point of view – having seen some non-thais perform it, i can see where some people would view it as being pretentious or something – i.e. you’re not thai, don’t speak thai, yet are adopting this one aspect of thai culture.
these issues of cultural authenticity are tough, and come up alot for many of america’s cultural imports – music, food, etc. i don’t currently do the ram muay, but for me, that’s only an issue of access; i would gladly learn it if my teachers were thai and were willing to teach it.
i wonder what thai trainers think of this – do you know?
This is an interesting topic to discuss. Good job Nopstar, actually getting people to think about more than awesome Van Damme dance moves and hot girls that fight. I guess there is no winning this argument, as there are and will always be many opinions.
I do agree with the Prin, it would be interesting to get a “thai-trainers” take on this. Not as a be-all-end-all opinion or an endorsement of the right thing to do, but it would be really interesting to hear what thai’s (trainers and former fighters) think about foreign fighters performing or not performing the ram muay.
Nopstar, can you ask around and add to this thread?
Here’s my opinion, short and easy……Ram Muay is performed by all Thai fighters in Thailand…and most also do it while fighting overseas. Thai people were upset because Ramon Dekkers refused to do the Ram Muay. So here’s my take on this….Ram Muay shouldn’t be a requirement for non-Thai fighters while fighting overseas…but should be performed while fighting in Thailand as a sign of respect for the people of Thailand. The sport belongs to them and they are willing to share it with the world. As a sign of courtesy and gratitude we should at least respect their wishes by performing it in their country. When in someone’s house you must obey their rules. When coming to my house, wipe ur feet on the rug and take your hat off. In Japan, you must take your shoes off before entering someone’s home, or bow to your sensei before entering the dojo. In Thailand..u should perform the Ram Muay when entering their ring…who cares wut u do when u’re entering ur ring? I’m sure they don’t.
OK! Maybe it wasn’t that short…but it sure was easy.
I am going to have a disagree with you bro. In all the gyms I have trained at we have never been taught the ram muay. In the US we trained real muay thai, my trainer visited thailand, japan often. In Korea my trainer had trained in thailand and incoporated everything except the ram muay. Now in Japan I am training and soon to be fighting and I still do not peform the ram muay. Am I kickboxer? I think not. My background is Muay Thai. There are no spinning reverse booty kicks in my arsenal.
Nopstar, I agree with you 1000%. I have been training Muay Thai for a long time, recently started fighting. When I fight and don’t do a Ram Muay it is like I get a feeling of, I don’t know, not REALLY doing Muay Thai. It feels like I am doing just a fancier form of kickboxing.
When I trained in Thailand I asked to be taught the Ram Muay. They obliged and showed me but now I have forgotten it all (because I was stupid and asked 2 days before I left). I wish I would have learned better and remembered it because I would do it before every fight.
Nopstar said that doing Ram Muay won’t make you a better fighter and this is correct. But fighting in a Muay Thai fight without doing the Ram Muay is like shooting a gun with rubber bullets. It looks and sounds the same, may hurt like a bitch but, it isn’t a REAL gun.
I think another point is, most of what we see on PPVs with K-1, see in ISKA fights etc.. is not muay thai. Go to Thailand to see real muay thai . You will see how important the ram muay is to the whole experience.
Sure, there are muay thai techniques used in all of these fights — Pride and the UFC too.. But are you really fighting muay thai? Can you elbow to the head? Can you knee to the head? Can you do more than one strike in the clinch… ? All these modified rules makes some other form of fight entertainment that is just not real muay thai.
Wow great site.
I am very new to Muay Thai … first “introduction” to it is tomorrow. :) I found your site while just trying to do some research.
Glad I did.
I was lucky to find a place locally that stresses the marital arts aspect and cultural history.
I will definitely stop back in.
Great site!
Props and respect to all for making this blog a ‘must read’ in the Muay Thai community with all the comments.
I believe that the Ram Muay when available should be learned and used not only as a sign of respect to your teacher but as a thank you to all fighters and that have come and gone before you and taught the art of 8 limbs – keeping it alive for centuries and making it available to you without having to go to Thailand. I have no problems with people that don’t “Ram”, nor do I think it’s necessary or disrespectful if the dont. One thing that does piss me off are some complete tools out their that will snicker or mock a fighter when he/she does the ram muay and the funny thing is that those fighters get their asses handed to them 98% of the time. I do give much more respect to those fighters who choose to learn it because it shows a deeper understanding of Muay Thai being more than just a combat sport. I also think that the Ram Muay is a beautiful and very ‘marketable’ ritual of our sport which will only help it grow in popularity across the world.
I feel that learning the Ram Muay should be an important part of everyone’s Muay Thai education. Learning the Ram Muay helps you understand the culture and tradition behind Muay Thai and while you may never ever perform it, just knowing it will give you a greater respect for everything that goes into MT. For example, I trained in Tae Kwon Do on and off for over 13 years. The first dojo I trained with was very rigid and gave all of the commands in korean with the english translation right after. Once we were used to hearing korean, english was no longer spoken when commands were given. While or instructor never expected us to speak korean or even use what we had been taught in class, he felt it was extremely important that we KNEW some of the language, tradition, and philosophy behind TKD. I look at knowing the Ram Muay in the same way- I will probably never ever perform it, but I feel that knowing it will deepen my understanding of Muay Thai. My problem is that I’ll probably have to convince one of or Thai trainers to teach it to me as it is not a part of our curriculum (at least that I know of).
[...] was reading my article about the Ram Muay… damn I kind of sound like a dick! I think I was getting tired of all [...]
Old post, but thought I would put in my two cents for posterity’s sake.
I think ram muay is an integral part of the muaythai tradition. It is an aspect of the art, I think, that helps set it apart from fightsport like mma or boxing. I think all serious students of the art should learn it and its significance. It has the subtle effect of anchoring the sport as a respectable form of martial art and not just mere pugilism. That being said, many Thais perform ram muay perfunctorily and some non-Thais have a nice ram muay and then end up fighting like chickens with their heads cut off.
While I totally respect ram muay and think you should definitely learn it and do it if you are fighting in Thailand, I think it is far from the most important aspect of muaythai and not worth arguing over. People come to see (and bet on) fights, not ram muay (this does not mean it is ok to boo during ram muay). I want to see composure, clean techniques in the Thai tradition, a demonstrated understanding of the game, and good fighting spirit. The sport is not a ruleset, as many people around the world seem to think; it has its own legacy and flavor that distinguishes it from all other types of fighting. To call fights that do not retain the Thai feel of the game, at least to some degree, “muaythai,” is wrong. I am way more interested in fights retaining the true spirit (fimeu, I guess, as the French would say) in this sense than I care about ram muay.
So, even though I have admired beautiful ram muay on several occasions, I have never found myself saying, “Gee, that fight would have been a lot better if they had done ram muay in the beginning.” I don’t think ram muay makes or breaks a fight, but I also think you should learn (if you get the chance to learn it authentically) and respect it. I certainly don’t think it should be disrespected in any way, shape or form if it done outside of Thailand. But just because you do ram muay doesn’t mean you can fight in the Thai tradition, and just because you don’t do it doesn’t me you can’t.
I can say that I really love the fighting art of Muay Thai (maybe obsessed lol) and I have respect for the History and the people of Thailand. I train in America at a “traditional” Thai Gym and have been taught the Ram Muay. I have also done some study on Thai History and religion. Thailand is a predominantly Buddhist country and has been for a long time. So with an art that has derived a set of customs in war times It is hard to believe that they did not associate it with the dominant religion of the time an place as they would have looked to their God as all cultures of old have in war times. (Not their trainer). I am a Christian and I just can’t gamble it. The Ram Muay looks very similar to many Buddhist praise dances. We are really looking on the surface here dealing with this issue. My Thai brother at my church had a talk to me about the spiritual aspect of Muay Thai. I feel I can tell my teacher I appreciate him in other ways that may not compromise my beliefs and spiritual commitments. The Wai Khru and Ram Muay are Custom, Ritual, and Ceremony, which are all things that are most commonly linked to Religion. So if Buddhism is not the religion is Muay Thai its self a religion?? And am I bowing to my trainer as a God?? These are all questions that must be asked by anyone seriously wanting to get clear answers on this issue. And if it’s such a issue I’m just not going to do it anymore. But again I would never consider my self a kick boxer that’s just not how I train or fight. But I am a Christian before I am a fighter so that’s just my stand on the issue.
Souvik, Prin, Spydaman,Ernesto, GorillaPalmz and Easy B all bring up good points. I have always felt a little bit conflicted about this. I am Buddhist and I have a Thai wife, before anyone jumps on me about “trying too hard to be Thai”, I had converted to Buddhism years before I met my wife. As for her, you can’t choose who you love.
I come from an extensive traditional martial arts background and grew up around alot of different cultures, early on I learned the some people show respect and politeness in different ways. I Wai Kru to show respect for my trainers and my wife’s traditions, I don’t want to embarass her family and break tradition. I know even Ramon Dekkers was judged because he didn’t do it (although as a farang I can understand his reasoning). I personally find the pre fight ritual as interesting and exciting as the fight itself.
In America fighters trash talk alot to hype the fight, I see some very powerful messages being sent in some of the Ram Muay’s out there. I also liked how JWP adapted his from the arrow shhoting traditional one to the gunslinger to match his style. I have seen similiar done with fighters that had machine guns as nick names.