Orono – Back in the saddle again
May 11, 2009 by nopstar
What happens after life as a fighter? Apparently more fighting! I mentioned this yesterday, but finally found some footage.
It looks like the Tiger MuayThai folks have added Muay Thai Legend Orono Por MuangUbon to their little MuayThai army. I think my next trip back I’m going to have to pay them a visit, see what’s going on over there.
I think Orono and I are the same age (35) ancient in terms of fighter years. I don’t know what he’s been doing in his retirement. If anyone knows please feel free to chime in. I’m actually surprised by Orono’s opponent, he’s actually pretty good. I’m sure he’s cleaned up his fair share of overweight cab drivers, before they decided to stick him in with Orono. As for Orono… he’s still the man, he may be a little rounder, softer and slower then he was a few years ago, but the guys will always be a badass in my book.
Anyway found some footage of him having some fun… any of you guys TMT peeps? Would love to hear what he’s been up to. BTW, what the hell was up with the music in the end? Is that Master Toddy?
Nice to see him win.
November 2007 he was parenting foreigners at a gym near Kata beach in Phuket.
I’m heading to Tiger in July! Totally stoked.
:)
Don’t do it fight geek. I’m telling you, honestly, as a friend that is looking out for you.
I’ve heard it has ‘issues’ as well. As for Orono he’s honestly stayed beyond his due date it’s not like Thongchai or some of the older Nak Muay who are older but stuck around in decent competition. Orono has always been an old favorite of mine.
orono being cagey ? or just a lucky elbow? i think the best part of that whole thing was the spinning back kick “michi” (his opponent’s name) threw that orono caught and clinched from…all us dojoites must remember : NO spinning techniques against a nak muay !
so many thoughts, so little time:
1) bangla stadium pretty empty for a friday night, where’s all the drunks?
2) tiger is the love it/hate it for falang muay thai students…it’s a pretty package and is reaping the whirlwind from the casual student/keep fit type (the location doesn’t hurt either) but others have commented on its lax training and match-making …other blogs talk about it…we can start a discussion here or maybe over e-mail
3) nop, gotta love the “overweight cab driver” comment, see #2
4) viewing toddy’s myspace page, i actually do believe that music’s from him…
5) speaking of the” master”, when is someone going to talk about him and whether he’s legit or not?
i believe stack has already launched a tirade against him on a previous thread.
Who’s the dodjoites?
Toddy? Oh boy that is a can worms there. Imo, no he is not legit. Can he train well? Opinions on that one vary widely to incompetent to excellent. Sken is even worse. His bio reads like a James Bond novel. But then pretty much everyone carrying the title ‘kru’, ‘arjan’, or ‘master’ in the west can be be reliably counted as a fraud. It’s usually ex-dojoites who pay subservience to those titles like they mean something more than actual in-ring experience, competence and integrity and honesty.
i mean myself as much as anyone else when it comes to dojoites…i think it’s safe to assume many here (ok, me anyway) came to muay thai via another art/
style (if not, my apologies ) ….stack, i searched toddy on nop’s mmt engine here and couldn’t find much…perhaps i’m missing something ? there was another topic a while ago which brought up the ajarn, etc. debate and how lineage, etc. is being used more and more in western muay thai…all i know is that i don’t trust instructor bios when they don’t mention fight records…
toddy sure did make a ton of loot off of that fight girls show…only in america :)
Indeed he did Celtic but other than that he really isn’t doing much. I know he and Lin kind of had a silent battle to get the WBC Sanction arm for the USA. He’s kind of a joke imo. Lin is now trying his hand at promoting but his promises to bring over big Thai talent to fight from Fairtex have thus far fallen completely flat. Allegedly Narupoel is coming to the USA to fight. So Lin is an example of a non-master who is a complete sham and has nothing in the way of integrity or honesty.
As for Only in America, you do realize that Toddy started in the UK before going to the USA right? The UK for the size of the country is riddled with pretend Krus and ‘Masters’. The USA is doing it’s best at catching up tho. You will note that ironically in France and Holland – probably the best 2 countries at Muay Thai in the west has virtually no ‘masters’, ‘arjans’ or ‘krus’. One day I shall explore this topic more thoroughly else where.
But for this topic I will say Orono truly was among my favorites of the 90s Muay Thai era. He was never a real feel it out fighter. He always went in for the kill.
stack, good point..holland gives even the thais a run for their money…would love to hear from you in the future re this topic…cheers!
Orono is a bad ass. I’m planning to go back to Thailand in August, and I was looking to try out tiger Muay Thai but after reading some of the comments, I’m having second thoughts. I’ve trained at Jitti gym before which was great but the place is kind of small compared to tiger, fairtex etc… Anybody have any suggestion for a great gym?
As far as Toddy is concerned, I think he is legit or at least his trainers are. According to their website, master Lou Chen is an ex Lumpini fighter, I’ve trained with him and it was great.
In conclusion, Toddy might not be the best trainer, but he seems to surround himself with legit instructors.
P.S: “But then pretty much everyone carrying the title ‘kru’, ‘arjan’, or ‘master’ in the west can be be reliably counted as a fraud.” That is a ridiculous statement. Kru Nestor Marte from ultimate gym ny is definitely legit.
I have been doing research on Tiger Muay Thai and I have been planning on going there in Sept. Can someone give feedback on the gym as a whole. I know it is geared toward Farang and has MMA influence which turns most people off. There trainers are stacked, what is not so great about them if you want to be a pro fighter? What other legit gyms are in Phuket for people wanting to go Pro? I need to get used to Thai training before jumping into a gym like sityodtong. Any feedback is appreciated.
first, nice win for a differently shaped orono. lol. =)
second, from being around the scene here in america for a bit, i would say stack is 100% dead on with everything he said regarding the state of the art. thank you for speaking the truth. not sure how people are still getting ripped off in the age of digital video and google when they can just look and see what the art looks and feels like, but it is happening. the khru/ajarn thing is certainly an artifact of the traditional martial art days here in the states; frankly, most americans don’t feel like they are doing martial arts unless they are getting rankings.
Orono is the man, but I hate seeing him out of shape like this! Stack has some interesting points. I always thought it strange to use the term Kru, Ajarn to non Thais for some reason.
dragon,
i will comment based on what i’ve observed..a youtube search of the gym will yield a collection of clips where their students are matched up with thai opponents…in the searing atmosphere of a packed bangla stadium 300 lb. aussies are matched w/ the best 150 lb. thai bartenders in phuket…hand-picked thais go down 30 seconds into the first round against TMT students…in a nutshell, TMT has perfected the muay thai holiday : 1) train at your own pace 2) do it in a westerner-friendly location (phuket, bars, birds, booze, etc.) 3) if you like, you can fight and beat a thai..doesn’t matter how good he/she was…he/she is thai
part of me hates, but part of me says that they’re giving people what they want…and that’s tourism…can anyone who’s been there say we haven’t run into these kind of tourists, aren’t these tourists ourselves sometimes ?
makes the orono clip all the more interesting…did “michi” know what he was getting into? surely orono wasn’t gonna lay down…
Celtic thanks for your input. The promotion part of fighting does play a factor, and I would have to make a blanket statment saying most amatuer Nak Muay are not going to want to fight Orono the first few fights in the tourist relm. There is a balance for a good match up but it does not always have to do with the fighters or the trainers. I am looking for more input on the actual quality of training at Tiger. Maybe from someone that has trained there and is a pro. With all the trainers in the stable I would want to assume if you are serious they will take you serious but who knows these days. Training in a nicer enviroment is a bonus being in Phuket and any tourist fighter can get distracted anywhere in Thailand. More or less how does Tiger Muay Thai camp (training and fight wise) match up against other gyms specifically in Phuket?
dragon, i’d say besides putting out the call here, check muaythailand.com or the forum board on muaythaifocus.com for “been there/done that” comments…it’s a popular camp..best of luck :)
“But then pretty much everyone carrying the title ‘kru’, ‘arjan’, or ‘master’ in the west can be be reliably counted as a fraud.” That is a ridiculous statement. Kru Nestor Marte from ultimate gym ny is definitely legit.”
Toddy is a fraud not necesarily because he can’t train well (as I said opinion varies, I’m of the opinion he is average to sub-average). He’s a fraud because he lies too much. Want some amusement on a slow day? Ask him what he got his engineering degree in. Or ‘Thai Kwon Do’. I shit you not these are things he invented. Next ask him about his alleged 88 fight career record in Muay Thai. The answers you get should suffice enough for you to draw your own conclusions.
There is no doubt he can market and sell extremely well. As Gorilla states very accurately the need for subservience to mystical ‘master’ from the far east is a well worn artifact of America’s earliest introductions to Far East martial arts in general. This how you get and I quote verbatim ‘Canadian legend of Muay Thai’ like Mike Miles who’s never had a single Muay Thai bout in his life. People in the west are being sold a package of goods that’s neither accurate or very honestly good for them or Muay Thai.
MMA students or competitors can attest to how many Classical martial artists have found or discovered hidden ground techniques in their style once MMA took root in the USA. And usually those consisted of high school greco roman techniques.
Everyone on Mymuaythai that loves and values the sport of Muay Thai should be aware and make an effort to defend the sport’s integrity. The only people that can keep the sport honest is the people in it. The only way sanctioning bodies and promoters stay on the right path is if you guys make sure they stay on it. It’s a dire mistake to think any promoter, trainer, sanctioning body can make Muay thai a sport reflecting integrity and/or honesty. It’s not their job. Their job is to make money.
Nestor doesn’t demand people call him ‘kru’ to my knowledge. And I will agree if not a good teacher he himself seems competent in Muay Thai
Lou Chen is a non-entity in Muay Thai Lumpinee or otherwise. He sounds pretty Chinese to be Thai imo.
Stack-
Can you run for something so I can vote for you? Well put.
Ha no prob, Nop I am sincere with that. In any fight sport the only real body that keeps the sport honest is it’s fans and participants.
“Toddy is a fraud not necesarily because he can’t train well (as I said opinion varies, I’m of the opinion he is average to sub-average). He’s a fraud because he lies too much. Want some amusement on a slow day? Ask him what he got his engineering degree in. Or ‘Thai Kwon Do’. I shit you not these are things he invented. Next ask him about his alleged 88 fight career record in Muay Thai. The answers you get should suffice enough for you to draw your own conclusions.”
I see your point, my opinion is based on my experience training at his gym.
You are right, Nestor does not require to be called Kru.
I just think that saying “everyone carrying the title ‘kru’, ‘arjan’, or ‘master’ in the west can be be reliably counted as a fraud.” is unfair to the real authentic american trainers like Nestor Marte and Mark (Florian’s trainer).
I enjoyed my stay at Tiger last year. The trainers were great. They have a number of different groups—beginners, intermediate and advanced. I suppose they may take it easier on beginners and intermediate, but I thought we went pretty hard in the advanced group. That being said, I’m not used to training all day in the heat, so what I think is hard might be a walk in the park for a pro.
As far as the match ups go … I don’t know. I only trained there last year and didn’t fight, but this year I’ll have a fight through them. I have seen some VERY bad match ups online (as Celtic said) but they’re not all one sided. All I want is a fair fight … I certainly wouldn’t get any pleasure from ‘defeating’ an opponent that wasn’t as good as me, or took a dive. Have to wait and see what happens.
Where I live (Tasmania, Australia), I don’t get the opportunity to see quality Thai fighters up close. So for me, to be able to see so many champs and ex-champs in the one place was just fantastic. It was just so great to talk to them, learn from them and watch them train.
I’ve heard some bad stories too, but I can only go by my own experience. And I loved it there!
I think stack is pissed because Master Toddy never let him in on the secret techniques of the Cobra Punch. Ha! JWP met Angie at Toddy’s back in the day. I think that’s where JWP learned his crocodile kick! Kee YAH!!
Toddy’s worthless. And for Delagrotte to be called a kru when by his own acount he had one ‘fight’ is beyond laughable. Yes Parr met Angela Rivera while staying in the USA illegally.
Damn! Delagrotte has only 1 fight? That’s a suprise to me, I thought he was an experienced fighter; however, does that mean he is not a good trainer?
Delgrotte hasn’t turned out any notable Muay Thai fighters that I’ve seen. And why is being called kru so important to him? I’ve heard people be instructed to call him that and that only.
And what’s his basis for this? That 10-year old kids called him that in Thailand
“n Boston, DellaGrotte had immediately shifted his teaching focus to Thai boxing. He became a certified instructor under Master Yodtong, and his school became the U.S. branch of the Sityodtong camp. Then followed the most convincing evidence he had won the respect of the Thai natives.
“During one of DellaGrotte’s many visits, the exact year or trip he can’t recall, he was waiting in the gym when the schoolchildren arrived. They ranged from about 10 years old to 14. Kids growing up training, and from a pickup truck they climbed out of the back and over the sides, to hustle in and bow to their trainers before putting up their school books and changing into their Thai shorts. DellaGrotte had seen the ritual countless times, but this particular trip, suddenly, the children were coming right up to him, bowing and calling him kru. ”
Funny that he cannot even remember the year it occured to him to start invoking his own title of ‘kru’. Source – Sherdog.
I like this thread; from orono to a discussion on western branding and packaging of MT. This is why our blog is such a good resource, look at what you guys covered in one thread.
Interesting background from Stack, and yep quite a revealing post.
It is interesting that i see all these MT “coaches” who train MMA guys yet I have never seen them mentioned here nor seen their fights here.
One time in WEC fight I saw Noom cornering and I say to myself..well there is a real MT coach, strangely enough no announcer made any mention of him.
and btw he does NOT demand any title for himself, and if anyone should demand some title it would be him
I’ve been to Sityodtong. When the kids get out of school they came up to all the adults, falang and thai, and do a wai. Does that mean I’m a kru as well? Bitchin! Call me McMaster Lucas!
just wanted to say im sad to see orono back in the ring,me and my friend puja,was at krs gym in ubon for some time ago,and orono was there,and it was really nice to meet a legend like him,but how can i say this..he wasnt 100% in the head anymore,all of the guys at the camp made jokes about him and called him “tingtong”,and he was really “punchy”,and a legend like him to end up at bangla stadium..sad sad and sad!!
henke sor.suwanne
I was thinking more along the lines of ‘Grandmaster’, ‘High Overlord’ or may be ‘Imperious Leader’ may be adequate for you Matt. Failing that take a page from our own 2 Live Kru crew and a humble King Arjan may suffice. Nothing sayas master like a mix of east and west. You haven’t lived until an Arjan Joe strides around in his silk Thaiboxing trunks in a gym.
Michi who Orono is fighting lives and fight out of J. Prapa Gym in Kata, Phuket and has 100+ fights so yes, he has been throw his fair deal of tuk tuk drivers
good fight from both men
Nice thread guys. To be fair to Tiger.. they are not the only gym serving up fat cabbies to foreign fighters. And I am not just talking about the Fairtex / Jack Osbourne debacle.
I witnessed a very skilled and in-shape Fairtex fighter in Pattaya a few years back, be served just the most ridiculous of opponents. It wasn’t even a test for the young foreigner… I think he knocked him out with knees in the first round. I have seen this in Phuket, Samui and Pattaya.
Only once did I see a 300 pd American gorilla get his face cut open by a 170 pd Thai in Samui. I kinda felt bad for the fat American. His kick looked more like he was going for a field goal than anything else.
The other stuff does seem to be a pre-packaged vacation experience, as has been mentioned. Funny thing is, you can immediately tell if the fight is a fluke or not. Just watch the thais betting.
Interesting thread! It’s always interesting to see that MMA people think Delagrotte is some ex-worldchampion just because he’s associated with Sityodtong. MMA fighters, with the exception of a few, have no clue about real Muay Thai. I remember Rich Franklin defending knees from Anderson Silva by trying to block them with his arms and getting utterly destroyed in the process… My trainer would yell (or laugh) at me if I did that in sparring.
At least Grand Master Emperor Toddy has produced some good Muay Thai fighters like Kit Cope eventhough he’s a shady character. Actually, he is also affiliated with Tiger Muay Thai.
Anyway, if you want to train at a real authentic gym, then don’t go to Tiger. There are better choices out there…
Orono is just a tremendous fighter! So awesome to see him training and fighting.
In regards to americans, nestor marte is one of the worst muay thai instructors on the planet. Pure ego. i saw him get ko’d by a looping hook in one round in a fight in new york, it was the worst show of muay thai on planet earth. He rarely produces any top caliber fighters nor any instructors for the many years he has been in business all he preaches is how he is real, authentic muay thai but the classes are just kickboxing combos on pads for endless rounds. If you look at the classes and you train in thailand, its night and day. Its just very few people know what true muay thai is and they listen to people like that. Real muay thai is hard to find in the us especially in new york.
I’ll add this Nestor himself looks great while tooling MMA fighters like Anderson Silva and Randy Couture. The KO and the arrogance I have neither seen or experienced. I only remarked that he looked good but then again I only saw him ‘training’ mma guys.
Thanks for the addition john.
“tooling” randy couture and anderson silva, are you nuts? Its training, not professional fighting. It shows your lack of understanding of fighting and reality. Thats why you train under nestor. He is neither world class nor has produced any world class fighters. Look at the two times, he was knocked out cold in the ring, look at it carefully, those are real fights. Muay thai fights against low level competition in New York. That is reality. Training, friendly sparring with two champs is just that. Look at the actual bouts and the friend sparring and get your head on straight. If you cant differeniate between them then you need to get some help. Maybe when you run into anderson silva or randy couture, you can ask them about the time a certain “nestor marte” tooled them while fooling around in the ring, light sparring and taking it easy. In a real fight, nestor wouldnt make out of the first round with either of them. reality vs ego driven dribble. If nestor really believes he can tool either man, there are those who put up money to see that!!!!!!!!!
Reality is reality. Nestor knows very little about mma and has produced no one so speak of any rank, experience or fighters at this point. so speaking that he knows mma is joke onto itself. He has neither competed in mma nor produced anyone of any rank or experience in mma. That is cold, hard reality and cold hard facts.
Arrogance is someone saying they teach authentic real muay thai then teaching a class of kickboxing drills in addition to no instructors of note for over 8 years and no champs outside of two amateur fighters. Its a long draught and simply a record of nothing. As far as his own fighting. i have personally witnessed him ko’d twice in a new york ring supposedly doing muay thai, That is fact, there are videos of that to support that.
As far as mma, its new to him and his school, so time will time if he will be producing the same zero effect he has had on muay thai in mma. We’ll see. But history usually repeats itself. Training is one thing, fighting and producing fighters of note and of quality is another, nestor does neither.
Check the web for nestors ko fight footage or check the record books. its very telling information.
In the past nestor made certain similiar comments about renzo, who did some trainng with him many years ago, it lead to a complete shut down from him and his students. so using an endorsement from renzo is complete non sense. ask renzo about it. Nestor needs to respect the real fighters and real champions who do what they do for a living and dont masquerade as a fighter and teacher. Two seperate things. two seperate worlds.
Wow!…Seems like Johnmuay has a personal vendetta against Nestor…..lol. Did he steal ur lunch money?…Just kiddin’! Since we’re on the subject of Fake krus and Ajarn…. Does anyone has any comment about Phil Nurse?
John’s a little pissed but I get it. By tooling I meant in sparring. Which honestly was with very little contact. I will be sure to ask either Couture or Anderson should I run into them if they are aware the clip of them against Marte being clowned thoroughly was intentional or does a no-name state side self-made Kru normally do that to them.
Nurse is a Sandy Holt disciple who in turn is a Toddy disciple. Draw your own conclusions there.
Pardon me I meant Sken disciple who by comparison makes Toddy seem credible and honest.
No vendettas just truth. Been in the game a long time. You have to look at things realistically. It does get me pissed when people create “legends” from molehills. Its what i call website antics. In New York, alot of people share the same sentiments about nestor, just ask around. It’s not only me. Go ask Renzo as well.
Stack:
Dont know much about phil. I saw him fight once and he was pretty smooth, more euopean muay thai through sken, but he had skill and he did fight and has a good record. Never been to his school, but people generally like it and he has a good attitude. Phil also has been working/cornering with mma fighter George St Pierre on his muay thai and that obviously has upped his visibility in the last two years.
As a further tie in, phil originally trained nestor, then they had some words and camutti, one of nestors students, fought nestor who had just returned from thailand, huffing and puffing about his muay thai, and camutti ko’d nestor with a looping hook. Theres videotape on that as well.
The truth is just the truth. Its odd how people sort of dont want to accept i. I guess mythology is better for the gulliable.
classes in new york pretty much all look and are run the same. None have any resemblance to thailand or thai training, regardless of what the teacher or website states. They are pretty much kickboxing and pad drllls, some have very little clinching, some have additional classes for it. I guess they run along the same lines as the sken or toddy run classes and formatted close to that. Most people are disappointed when they take the classes especially if they have been to thailand to train. I think the person would experience close to the same stuff if he trained with phil or nestor or whoever at this point.
Hold on! As far as Nestor is concern, he is a very good trainer. His classes are not kickboxing, it’s pure Muay Thai. There might not be much attention given to elbows but this the US we are talking about. You can’t compare a muay thai program in the states to the one’s in Thailand. We obviously do not train as much and Thailand has obviously a lot more to offer (ex: several trainers on site).
Secondly, a good fighter does not necessarily translate into a good trainer and vice versa. Just look at Freddy Roach. He hasn’t the greatest fighter but he is considered one of the best trainers out there.
I’ve been training with Nestor since 2001, yes he may rub some people the wrong way but he is a true student and teacher of MT. He speaks fluent Thai, goes to Thailand twice a year to improve his teaching and he brings Thai trainers to the gym every year (Arjarn Prasit whom we call sit). Yes he’s only got 2 champion MT fighters, but remember, there are not a lot of MT enthusiast out here and the classes are very hard (people out here are lazy or they don’t have time).
Some may not like him, he might not have the best chin, however, he knows his stuff and has very good clean technique. Like I said, I have been training with him since 2001, and I’ve trained all over the world including Bangkok and every place that I trained was impressed with my skills, maybe there blowing smoke up my ass, but I’ve handled all most of my sparring partners and my record is 9 and 1. The only reason why I don’t train with him is cause I moved to Florida and I have yet to find a Kru of his caliber.
Real talk.
Renzo also parted ways with Coban who has 10X the legitimacy of Nurse, Marte or anyone else in New York. I wouldn’t be looking to Renzo for validation of an alleged Muay Thai program anyway as one can see from the complete lack of awesome Muay Thai Renzo unleashes in his fights since his training with Coban or the pretend krus.
Nurse’s most notable contribution has also been with MMA and sorry but St.Pierre’s Muay Thai change is negligible. Nurse’s most notable contribution was to St.Pierre’s vaseline gate hearing and that. I’m still waiting on his awesome contribution to world class or even national class Muay Thai that’d be worthy of a ‘legendary kru’.
Sken is European style by way of Tae Kwon Do. There is nothing I’d characterize about Sken being ‘European’ since most Europeans don’t lie as much as Sken does. I mean Sken had to flee Thailand after all because there was so much jealous stadium fighters in Thailand. At least that’s what his bio says.
Freddy Roach was at one time a top ranked boxer. Why would you compare a real fighter and truly world class trainer to anything Nestor does or says? Let me know when speaking Thai becomes a requisite for competence and may be Nestor can get a minor point there.
I mentioned speaking Thai to show that he has spent a great amount of time in Thailand and to further demonstrate his appreciation for the culture. I’m only speaking from my experience training at the ultimate gym.
Fighting and training fighters are 2 different things. Lou Duva, Angelo Dundy etc…
I’m just saying that an individuals fighting record does not determine if that person is a good trainer or not.
I don’t know what Nestor did to some of you guys, but damn! So much hate.
Just like you mentioned, Dellagratti (or whatever) has barely any fighting experience but he is making a name for himself as a trainer. Guys that he trains seem to get better.
There are only a hand full of world class trainers that are not Thai.
There’s trainers that are world class and more than get credit for it. At the same time there are too many trainers that get credit for things they never should i.e. lying. Nestor I have no issue with. And like I said he looks great clowning MMA guys.
It’s all good, I just could not let the misinformation about him spread like that. Trust me he is legit. If your ever in the NY area give him a try and you will see for yourself.
Sorry but MMA guys still don’t know how to strike, so it’s no surprise to me that Nestor was toying with them. Randy looks ridiculous in that clip.
Now, who is going to Jamaica? I’m not missing that event! Can’t wait…
My wife is thai and i speak fluent and lived and trained in thailand for many years and have a home there.
Nestor is not a world class trainer and hasnt produced any fighters of any note on any level. He was not a good fighter so what..but what has he produced, that is the quality of a trainer. You are saying renzos opinon doesnt count but he trains fighters that compete on every level in every place and as a competitor has walked the walk. You cant compare nestor to any caliber trainer like that. Nestor was not a good competitor and not a good trainer. a good trainer produces fighters of caliber like freddy roach does.
Nestors classes are not anything like muay thai in thailand at all. They are kickboxing classes with a minimal of clinching and no elbows. go there and watch them. There are a handful of top notch trainers that are not thai but nestor is not one of them. He is fairly competent but he needs to get back to muay thai and the meaning of muay thai because he is far from it.
You can train in thailand all you want but if you cant see that then you must be training alot at potpong and not so much in the camps.
Nestor did nothing to anyone. His fights, his training record of fighters and producing students of quality. I dont think its absorbing in. He has done nothing for muay thai nor produced any champions of any caliber. He is not elevating muay thai but just exploiting the words.
Della grotte has a tremendous attitude and is doing alot of positive work with muay thai on the mma front, pushing it into an arena that is popular. He is well liked and he is well used. He has bypassed people like nestor by miles and miles. He is growing as a trainer and promoting muay thai by bringing in muay thai trainers like kru toy. I havent trained with him but i see his work as positive.
If people thinks nestors class is muay thai then go to thailand train come back and look what is taught. Its a joke. A pure and utter joke. There is no defense for what nestor is labeling muay thai and teaching there. His fighters dont even do the wai kru when they fight and neither does he. Thats real muay thai!!!
I am precisely saying Renzo’s opinion on Muay Thai means absolutely nothing to me. And as said before I’ve seen absolutely no evidence of Coban, Marte or Nurse’s training on him. At best on his feet he looks like a sloppy kickboxer.
He’s walked the MMA walk not the Muay Thai one. If I was seeking clarification on BJJ lineage Renzo’s opinion would matter. We’re talking about Muay Thai hence it does not. Consider this, Renzo traded in Coban for Nurse and Marte one of which you rate as less than credible. Neither of them holds a candle to Coban as a fighter or as a trainer.
Delagrotte is a joke.
And why are you throwing your support behind one guy whos’ successfully sold his brand of exploitation/fraud over another? Both claim to be krus. One you say sucks at fighting and training. The other’s had one fight no one has ever seen. Pick your poison if you must but I’m not getting behind anyone who loves the title of kru and adheres to it. Specifically neither have ever had a notable fighter of any stripe in Muay Thai. You guys fall in love with fake titles too much. No wonder Muay Thai is struggling in America to make head way any where.
As for Dellagrotte importing talent and exploiting it – what’s new there? Fairtex was robbing Thai trainers before Dellagrotte ever heard of Muay Thai. Fairtex has always had excellent Thai trainers and bought talent where they could. That has not prevented Lin from exploiting them to the fullest either. Or from bringing the masses Jack Osbourne versus ‘world champion’ Thai cabbies.
Stack
Good points.
I am responding to what i seen first hand and thats nestor. I havent seen mark yet but will likely in the future. I dont support him I was responding that he does indeed work with and corner top mma fighters, thats a given and a reality.
The situation in america is a mess as you can see.
Its crazy when someone says nestor is teaching authentic, muay thai when there is not a shred of it in the class. Barring he might not have been a good competitor, barring he might not be a world class or great trainer, at least impart some true muay thai skills including the clinch, wai kru, elbows, etc. When it comes down to day to day teaching, its not there. I dont know if della grotte is saying he is teaching real, authentic muay thai or makes claims as such as nestor is either.
Now after 10 years or so of teaching then produce someone of note as a trainer, ok, he might have sudan or whoever, at some level but it should be consistent at some level to say hey this guy is a top notch muay thai trainer or a really good trainer.
I would say nestor is mid level trainer who is doing his best at a commercial exterprise with muay thai, by using a watered down base to teach from. I will give him that. But top notch or world class is not it, when he coaches someone to that level or even a state champion level, he will begin to rise but he hasnt as of yet. Maybe mma will give him a better outlet for that and maybe he senses and feels that.
You are correct as well this is primarily a Muay Thai forum for muay thai discussion so lets limit the mma influences(which i thinnk della grotte has mostly worked in and gained note for).
I dont know why muay thai never took off in america but one reason is a lack of top notch trainers and schools or gyms. Its hard to bring thai people its takes time and money and that could be a factor and why larger businesses like fairtex where able to control that sector here.
Its an interesting topic. I appreciate all the feedback pro and con. I just wanted to express my concerns over the issue of authentic, real teaching vs a more commercial watered down version which is what is here in NY. Anyone should try the classes to see.
Wow! Jhonnymuay! You are comparing Nestor’s class to training in Thailand! It is definitely more intense in Thailand!! But the technique is the same! Yes, he’s that good! HE KNOWS HIS SHIT! Calling it kickboxing is insulting! You obviously don’t know what you are talking about. Most people that train in the states do it for fitness, they don’t want to get hit; therefore those particular people will probably train lightly. HOWEVER, for the fighters, the sparring is brutal, we do plenty of blocking/counter drills and a lot of clinch work, knees, elbows all that good shit!
In case you didn’t know, Muay Thai in the states is underground. A few people know about this sport and even less train to compete. I’ve trained with Nestor for nearly 10 years and I’ve seen many students come and go and only a few are competing. Out of that, you got 2 champions and a half of dozen excellent fighters that you and the rest of the world will probably never hear about. Considering that MT is not very popular in the states and the small gym size, 2 champs ain’t bad. How many champs does Dellagrotte have?
Your saying that he has done nothing for MT! He exposed me and a countless of others to MT, he is passing on his knowledge and who knows, perhaps in the near future he just might produce the next ufc or whatever champion.
By the way some of the fighters do the wai kru, Ajarn prasit (the thai trainer from Thailand who has trained numerous champions) personally taught me the ritual, which I have on video. I fought many times in the states and I’ve never performed the wai kru, I’m guilty. However, I’m still a MT fighter. Some place don’t even allow you to perform the wai kru.
I know precisely why Muay Thai in America never took off. Let me expand that to all of North America and I can tell you. Greed, incompetence and fraud. It truly is that simple. It wasn’t for a want of training it’s from gross misrepresentations from ‘black belts’ in Muay Thai to masters and basic underhanded dishonesty. Now factor in poor training and the picture is complete. How can you possibly attract decent Thai trainers when there frankly is no market or interest in Muay Thai in America? And the ones teaching Muay Thai lie too much and have profound magical titles?
The greatest supporter for Muay Thai in America was Alex Gong, himself a some what flawed personality. But he believed in Muay Thai 100%. He never believed there was a better fight sport in the world and Gong did a lot more to make Muay thai part of the American vocabulary than any amount of Contender Asia, Fight Girls, I’ll pretend to be a Muay Thai Fighter on MTV or anything else. When Lin married into Fairtex and took over Fairtex America – here were the players in USA Muay Thai: Lin, Toddy, and mma trainers. As long as people in America in Muay Thai tolerate crap goods being foisted on them the crap will flow.
USA has no leg to stand-on when they wish Muay Thai here was better but do nothing about it. Gong fought and Gong loved Muay Thai. For Gong it was his sport and his life. He wasn’t always the easiest to deal with and there were some questionable things he did but Gong had unflagging love for Muay Thai.
To speak to your other points: the issues with credible trainers in NY is not by any means restricted to NY at all. It can safely be considered a national issue for the most part with notable exceptions.
jhonnymuay, you criticize Nestor for producing 2 champs, but look at the big picture. The USA doesn’t have many top fighters. We are behind England, France, Australia and the rest of the world when it comes to MT. Nestor is 1 of the guys that is bringing the real authentic MT to the USA. Think about it, there are no Americans in max.
Stacks, you make a lot of sense, Alex (rip) was someone I looked up to (still do). The way you describe Gong is exactly how I would describe Nestor as far as his love and respect for MT goes.
Good points by all.
Stack: interesting take on gong. It does take an all out effort to steer things around.
I think Della Grotte made a firm stand as a trainer of muay thai for mma fighters, that is his niche and his calling card, so its less about the muay thai and more about the integration from my point of view. In that field, he works with alot of top fighters.
Sudan:
I am not only criticizing nestor for his lack of success as a trainer but also his “claims: of teaching authentic muay thai and i dont know if have watched or seen a class since you left new york but it is not muay thai, it is kickboxing, sorry to say. Also Nestor is not world class or top notch until he produces and trains people of high caliber to success in the ring. This has not happened after 10 years, the two fighters he produced were local champions in an amateur bracket. But he makes his own effort and maintains his gym, he neither better or worse than any other trainer in NY.
He has not brought authentic muay thai to NY and I doubt if anyone would agree with that assumption. Its a point we disagree on. In the future, someone will bring and committ to real muay thai and it will hopefully pay dividends to them.
If nestor loved and respected muay thai, he and his students would do the wai kru before each fight. Its a great show of disrespect that he doesnt to authentic muay thai. He might be committed to muay thai on a commercial level but its not in his heart because he would be doing the right thing day after day.
The truth lies in the reality of the situations, if someone is doing it right, its there for all to see, one can talk and say this is this, but unless you are doing it and showing it its not there at all.
As far as his classes, this is not authentic muay thai
it starts with exercises and warm ups, fair enough, we do the exercises at the end in thailand.
then he just pairs people up and they do drills, hitting against each others gloves like savate or kickboxing, round after round, very little correction into timing, rythym and distance,
Then one person holds the paids for otthers for round after round, some people couldnt even hold the pads correctly(and there was little to correction), the drills themselves were nothing but simple combos.
No clinching, no elbows, some exercises and the class closed.
The intermediate class
was exercises, sparring, just boxing to start, then kicking, punching and some kneeing. no clinch rounds.
So this is authentic muay thai….its a commercial take on the system. which is ok, just call what it is. Its also why he probably doesnt produce that many champs, he isnt cycling through his people, doing padwork with them, and teaching them. They are doing padwork with each other which is a no-no at least in my camp.
Wow-
this thread got interesting…
“Pardon me I meant Sken disciple who by comparison makes Toddy seem credible and honest.”
Oh snap! Honestly, I don’t want anyone to do any leaping kicks to my grill, so I’m going to pass on this one.
You are lucky that only the trainers holds the pads for you, but what can you do when you are 1 trainer and 12 students? You pair them up. He will correct the ones that dedicated. I’m ready to bet that most US fighters fighting in the state don’t do it even buakow doesn’t do it in max
I’d link you to some of his Tae Kwon Do Muay Thai trainign videos but since I cannot put in links let me give you some revies of his ‘self-defense offerings’ found via amazon:
2.0 out of 5 stars Muay Thai withouth the teaching part!!, 6 April 2004
By “brood82″ – See all my reviews
It is billed as a muay thai training programme, however, what you actually get is some video play of muay thai practitioners practicing muay thai. No more no less. Granted you can make out what they are doing, but the ‘beginner to blackbelt’ billing is totally unwarranted.
1.0 out of 5 stars not very good at all, 4 Sep 2008
By M. Ford “m ford” (norwich uk) – See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
This is pointless unless you want to laugh at the ridiculously low budget, badly shot, poor and sometimes nervous narration. Not a good buy at all, if you want to learn Muay Thai then search for a club in your area, contact them and pay a visit as you will not learn a thing from this other than how NOT to create an educational film.
1.0 out of 5 stars Rip – off!!!, 2 Aug 2007
By Danny Hawkes “properganja” (Norwich, UK) – See all my reviews
What a load of rubbish!!!! Very grainy images of some people training (Not even to the camera I might add) I’ve been doing Muay Thai for about 6 years and there is absolutely nothing I learnt from this amateurish, muddled and totally useless video.
And now Sken’s biography. reads like Chuck fucking Norris’ life story doesn’t it?
The progress of Master Sken in the competitive world of professional Muay Thai is legendary, and in short order he became one of the most admired and respected fighters today his record of having never suffered a knock out during any of his professional fights, and real life fights remains a goal for the up and coming Thai boxers. Master Sken ended a career of 145 fights with no loses.
Master Sken was also an ex-member of Thailand’s Tae kwon do squad and he too had a formidable Thai boxing record. He had to flee to the UK to escape death from gangsters who wanted him to throw a fight and so came to stay in the UK with Master Toddy. There were many jealous Stadium champions against Master Sken.
Following his retirement from the professional Muay Thai field, Master Sken decided to accept the challenge afforded to him by the teaching of others. He holds a degree in Physical education, and is an accepted expert in the subject of Nutrition. 1977 heralded the arrival of Master Sken in Great Britain, and within a short time the word of his skills had spread, and the sport of Muay Thai was well and truly established.
Master Sken became a co-founding member of the British Thai boxing Council, and a founder of S.I.M.T.A.which is officially affiliated to the Thailand Professional Boxing Council.
Perhaps the most supportive fact of the contention that Master Sken is responsible for is the growth in popularity of the sport of Muay Thai in Great Britain, and the inherent quality of training that is now available, is that during the period 1981 to 1989 Nine holders of championship titles at British and World Champion level, are from the Sitnarong Camp.
There can be few men who have contributed so great an amount to a given sport during a lifetime, and in the case of Master Sken this is all the more remarkable when you consider that his “lifetime” is very much far from over.
The sport of Muay Thai, already owing him so much, continues to receive his undivided attention, and if the 20 last years or so are anything to go by, time is destined to see Muay Thai continuing to grow by leaps and bounds. In the opinion of many, this sport is set to become at least as popular, and may well surpass the style of Western Boxing as the first choice of the viewing public.
From the original nucleus of students in the north west of England the sport has been carried to regions further afield, and in each region has become well established. United Kingdom numbers in the branches of Sitnarong camp and it is now the turn of World Wide to be exposed to what must be the most rapidly growing sport around, initial evaluation showing a high degree of demand.
There can be little doubt that the future will see a complete network of locations which are teaching and promoting the Sitnarong style of Muay Thai, and embodied in the style, the teaching and morals of Master Sken. In this age of Material Possessions and a move away from traditional values, the return to a sound moral life style and the requirements for self discipline that are embodied within the code of Sitnarong Muay Thai can hardly fail to be and asset for the youth of today.
This guy is either the greatest citizen in Muay thai or a complete fraud. I am going with the latter personally.
Sudan!
Please, in thailand, my camp has close to 20 people and my trainer gets through all of them in the 2 hour frame, and those guys are fighters who need the rounds on the pads–TWICE A DAY, if you cut it down to a simplified workout it can happen and does happen in many classes i attended in the us. That is thai boxing. Secondly, if nestor had instructors, he could be working the pads while the co instructors hold the floor. There is no more excuses. Its not authentic muay thai. i have lived and trained in thailand for a veyr long time. Its a decent workout but not muay thai. Even if not, nestor needs to correct the people holding the pads and doing the drills, so they dont develop bad habits, holding the pads wrong really makes it hard not only for the person training but the pad holder.
Sudan
Secondly the most absurd thing you have said thus far is that if the student is dedicated he will be corrected! Nestor charges $200 a month for lessons, you should be teaching each person especially in the beginners class with care, diginity and details. His sparring class was just wild banging without correction you can get that anywhere. Its not happening evidently and further nail into the truth of authentic muay thais coffin.
” Ithink Della Grotte made a firm stand as a trainer of muay thai for mma fighters, that is his niche and his calling card, so its less about the muay thai and more about the integration from my point of view.”
Actually it’s less about Muay Thai and more about being called kru and misrepresenting the sport by ordering people to call you kru because 10-year olds did it once in Thailand. That’s precisely the version ‘kru’ is telling everyone including sherdog.
One minor correction to add Dellagrotte was allegedly a champion of Thailand in Muay Thai. And is the current world title champion. Wow. News to me.
‘Kru’ is so full of shit he squeaks when he walks. Enjoy your time with ‘kru’.
Johnmuay
Every body gets corrected, he’s all about detail and technique and I’m sure that the other advance students help out. That what I was doing when I was there. I can see why you feel that way since you train in Thailand! Funny how you call it savate kicks. If that was the case, he’d be fluent in Dutch and would most likely travel to Holland twice a year instead of Thailand. He brought numerous people through his gym, including Coban, Ajarn Prasit Thang Dong, Ramon Dekker, Marcos Rua, Anderson Silva and a lot of others that I can’t think of right now. Perhaps when you went there and watched a couple of classes he was having a bad week. All i know that there ain’t no savate or kickboxing at the ultimate gym.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t recall saying he was a world class trainer, all I said is that he is legit and brings the authentic MT.
I respect your opinion, now please stop blowing my high, I’m thinking about MONTEGO BAY, JAMAICA ON JUNE 26.
I no way I’m I saying that his or any gym in the US can mess with any camp in Thailand. I just want to make that clear.
I’m just thankful for what he has done for me.
stack
I havent read sherdog and wasnt aware of that. I have to check on that and read that. Thanks for bringing that up. . I see know where you are coming from and I need to look into what is said more carefully since it involves alot of non sense.
Sudan
I saw what i said, when uncorrected especially in a beginner its a problem and the problems were there. I wont send anyone to train there for that reason. He wasnt having a bad week, its consistent because other people told me the same afterwards. Also my close friend trained there for two months and finally gave up. What he teaches in the class, how the class is structured and how it is taught is NOT authentic muay thai as I outlined to you. You have to pay for pad work and theres no consistent clinching. In thailand, both are prevalent and always there. He lacks the proper respect of wai kru, most of it is endless partner drills ala savate or kickboxing and they modeled on them and not muay thai, it all adds up to his own version of muay thai which is what it is.
We can agree he is a successful teacher teaching his own brand of muay thai reconstructed for his commercial business. Its not close to nor does it replicate training in thailand in structure, focus or philosphy, so thus its a brand of his own making. If he was explosively successful with that as a coach it would be one thing but he is not at this point, so I would say the training is what is and produces whatever result you can get form it.
As I said let people try it out and see for themselves, they might have a good result like you did or they wont. We can leave it at that. I will let this rest.
Just check him out on youtube holding pads for Renzo, Anderson and Randy. I dare anybody to find a “savate” kick.
I agree that the structure is different than in Thailand. In Thailand, the class are usually 3 hours each, over here they are usually an hour, Nestor’s are an hour and a half I believe. Clinching is usually on fridays.
interesting debate, some eye openers even. I think this one topped the MMA debate
I like your theory on why MT in North America hasn’t caught on. Interesting indeed.
Still again muay thai in thailand is daily pad work and clinch work, neither is involved in the daily training by nestor at ultimate gym, it is not authentic true muay thai, and should not nor ever labeled as such. Also the drills he does are nowhere to be found in thailand, he made them up to pair people up to teach. His students werent corrected on their kicking whether he knows the kicks or not alot of students glided by without correction and there were only 8 people on the floor. No more excuses for this stuff. Its plain and simple. Either you understand muay thai and how its taught or you dont. like i said if you have been to thailand like you said then you know the training is night and day whether its an intensive or not. A good dedicated muay thai teacher will try to involve all aspects as he was taught them understaning how to get the padwork in, the teachings and details in and the clinch work, saying clinch work is on friday is tantamount saying it not important and barely covered. Its alot of work for a teacher to try to understand and convey the information and get it to the student, that what makes a great teacher, he works at until he gets the right formula to teach.
johnmuay those credentials are from ‘kru’s’ own site.
Stack; Thanks I just checked and found the paragraph:
“He traveled throughout Thailand, learning different styles of Muay Thai such as Mae Mai Muay Thai, Kun Khmer, Muay Burand, Muay Lao, and also Burmese Boxing. Mark is also a current Muay Thai champion.”
Its like they shoved the last sentence in “is also a current muay thai champion”. How do you go through thailand learning systems from other countries kun khmer(cambodia), muaylao(laos), burmese boxing(burma) within Thailand? I can see mae mai and muay burand(spellling?) but the whole thing is a little odd like you said.
It really isn’t that hard to sort out is it? All these alleged great competitors and trainers don’t even have a photo of their win or of the belt. Guys like Jongsanan who’ve had so many fights he’s not even sure what the 100s total to have photos of their wins and belts. Where’s Della Grotte’s? Where’s Skens? Where’s Toddy’s? I can never recall hearing Jongsanan demanding to be called Kru or introducing himself as kru. I give him about a million times more credibility points than I do Toddy, Sken or any of their ilk.
If it looks like bullshit and smells like bullshit you have high likelihood of it being bullshit. I’d pause before you praise anyone for having a ‘tremendous attitude’ when the only thing tremendous about them is their ability to separate suckers from their money. Especially given the many pronouncements ‘kru’ has made that obviously were never looked at.
hmmmmmmmm i really don’t see how anyone would want 2 go back 2 tiger muay thai in phuket, thailand i was sappose 2 go there 4 3 months and i jus stayed there for 1 month i’m a fighter and that place was a fucken fat camp!!!!!! so i had 2 split from there and found a better home wit Dragon muay thai right down tha street!!!
Hi stack,
I understand the sentiment now. Its really out of hand here in the US. I just wanted to highlight the one thing here in NY with “kru” nestor marte as an example but he is just one culprit of many obviously and it just gets deeper and deeper.
I guess this thread is a solid one for people who want to train and dont want to fall victim or be gulliable to the mass market muay thai as i call it. Mass market muay thai obviously includes paying for pad work, doing drills that have no basis in muay thai, forgetting the wai kru and doing clinchwork one day a week and getting corrected only if you prove yourself worthy of that. How you defend that I dont know but I guess they do.
Dont know what the remedy is at this point.
On a positive side thankfully there are many talented and dedicated professionals out there who are chasing the dream before chasing the paper. From my personal experience I’d put Iron Tiger among them from out of Ontario, CA among them. In America for the west coast you have FNF, Pacific, and others. In the SW you have some good things going on t0o. There isn’t any lying going on. There isn’t any chest beating paper cert krus.
The guys that teach there have actually had ring experience. They know and they love the sport. They aren’t karatekas who dabbled into kickboxing and decided they were Muay Thai. The problem is these are sparse pockets of authentic Muay Thai. It’s not the rule, it’s the exception. Most MMA gyms offering Muay Thai don’t have clue fucking one.
The fighters are busy and take dangerous fights and they venture out of their homes for competition. The 5-10 year amateurs you see in Calgary don’t really exist there. The home cooking doesn’t happen there. Muay Thai can be done correctly in the west. It just needs to be treated with respect and integrity. The USA at least has a pandemic of greedy, half informed charlatans all out for one thing – your cash. The only corrective force in fraud defense is people being educated and the truth being put out there openly. As long as for political reasons or business reasons integrity is forced to take a back seat don’t be shocked when the increasing mcdojo infestation of Muay Thai continues. Your best bet? Stay away from anything prefaced with ‘grandmaster’ ‘kru’ or ‘arjan’.
lol isnt ‘master’ toddy the guy that taught the black guy[who sucked massive ass] on the contender asia.
Ugh I know far more about him and the other ‘Contenders’ from Season 1 than I ever wanted to. Martinez’s not the worst of them believe me. And his many failures in life as well as sport aren’t uniquely his of the ‘Contenders’ either.
wow. im in LA, SFV area. not any time soon but i plan on training again. you mentioned iron tiger in ontario and some other ones i also wasnt familiar with. do you recommend any in the san fernando valley/la area?
i also must know if anyone has any input on MTA in north hollywood. supposedly they were the first muay thai gym in ca. i have seen them with malaipet at local fights and what not before he did mma but i never heard anyones input on the gym. they have a pic of the kru and somrak!……:(
Iron Tiger is in Ontario, Canada, not Ontario, California
Correct.
whoops. got it.
Here is an interesting video of Orono at 13 coins.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9aptl_13coins_sport
I can believe the hate on this thread. There has to me some underlying issue that these guys have with Kre Nestor. I’ve been training with Nestor for 3 years and he is why I’m so interested in Muay Thai and the Thai culture. He’s a great instructor and Ive learned so much when it comes to technic, dedication, conditioning and heart. Not everyone is in a situation to become a championship fighter. Most of the guys I see training Muay Thai do it for a hobby, to get in shape or self defense. Not to become champions. Don’t get me wrong there are a few guys that train to be the best. But is all about what you put into it. Fill a car with gas and it only moves if you push the pedal. Anyway it’s midnight and I have a job to go to in the morning. I will leave it at this for now. Get over what ever it is you guys have against Kru Nestor. Life is short, train hard and relax. No one forcing you to train with Nestor. I hope you find the best Muay Thai trainer in NY an become a champ one day. I won’t hold my breath.
I never bad mouthed Nestor for the record. I actually complimented him. And it’s pretty interesting you think you know what a champion trainer should or should not be after only 3 years of training. IF you train like you read you probably suck and that’s not a reflection on Nestor either.
Wow there is a lot of hate, elitism and vicious mud slinging here….it’s a shame. We keep shitting on our local instructors and soon there wont be any lol. No one’s perfect.
IF you call elitism not abiding by people who lie about records, titles, training and painting themselves as grandmasters then anyone smart enough to recognize should be called an elitist also. If you’re content to build a house of straw and live in it you can’t be angry for the element in the outside world exposing it again and again. And you certainly are not in a position to tell anyone what’s false is true.
Don’t get me wrong though, there are valid points in this discussion. Which is one of the reasons why i only train actual Muay Thai while i’m in Thailand (sasiprapa ftw), and when in the states i’m happy and content with the boxing/kickboxing training i get from this guy:
http://www.hmckickboxing.com/html/instructor.html
I really think alot more people should know about him, he doesn’t claim to teach traditional Muay Thai (though there are elements of it), but he’ll teach you how to fight. He doesn’t care to be called master, or to be compared to all the other trainers. He’ll teach you what he knows, if he can he’ll help you reach your goals whether it’s in kickboxing or MMA. He has probably forgotten more about stand-up fighting than most people know.
He also has been to Thailand numerous times and has taken his fighters with him, he likes pure Muay Thai, but understands why it turns alot of people off in the states. He’s just real, tells the truth and has nothing to prove to anyone.
Plus he has ties in K-1 and other Japanese or international fight organizations, he can hook you up with good deals for training and living in Thailand or Japan, or maybe pull some strings have you on a K-1 undercard, or you can just forget fighting and go surfing with him, lol. I think that’s reason enough to like the guy.
as long as the trainer is good I do not care if he is arjan or kru whatever.
but if he claims to be some sort of “grandmaster” and wants to be called that way, it should be 100% proof.
without having the proper achievements/background and reputation, it is totally fake, even though he might be the best trainer on the planet.
isn’t there an official muay thai organization in america which checks the trainer licenses?
The arjan and kru thing is always a polarizing topic for people in MT. And to be honest my position on it is changed in some minutiae. I’ve met ‘krus’ and ‘arjans’ of various stripes. Some I consider to be outstanding trainers and some who run the gamut from competent to embarrassingly bad. In nearly every encounter the trainers who have a great depth of knowledge and skill almost never insist on being called kru or arjan. That title is bestowed on them almost unwillingly. The ones that insist on that title and parade the title on themselves like a boy scout badge are nearly always bad.
Ask Nop himself how many ‘krus’ and ‘arjans’ he’s met there in the UK that are of the fake and bad variety. The title is a selling tool in the west and honestly nothing else.
As I explained in my comments earlier the need for the title is an artifact inherited from the west’s introduction to eastern martial arts in general. I’ve seen the defense of the title usage as ‘well, it’s just a title’. Well if it’s just a title why insist on it?
As you said Banana the proof is in the credibility earned through achievements. Being an Asian person it kills me how the mystical eastern lore is sold so often to unsuspecting and innocent people who only want to learn but are sold a wholly different package of goods.
A pro fighting friend of mine is training now at Kiatphontip pointed out Thai children actually use this term to make fun of people. It’s actually a little bit of a term of they use to denote someone being old or someone who takes themselves as an authority where they are not. As I also pointed out earlier if a trainer like Jongsanan who is a veteran of literally 100s of fights and a bonafide champion in Lumpinee isn’t calling himself kru how is someone in America who is no where near his mastery or teaching ability a kru or worse arjan and grandmaster?
Stack
“It really isn’t that hard to sort out is it? All these alleged great competitors and trainers don’t even have a photo of their win or of the belt. Guys like Jongsanan who’ve had so many fights he’s not even sure what the 100s total to have photos of their wins and belts. Where’s Della Grotte’s? Where’s Skens? Where’s Toddy’s? I can never recall hearing Jongsanan demanding to be called Kru or introducing himself as kru. I give him about a million times more credibility points than I do Toddy, Sken or any of their ilk.”
This is exactly the truth and should sum everything up …..a real Lumpini Champion and hard ass fighter doesnt even mention his credentials I actually dont even think some of the people have a clue who he (jongsanan “woodenman”) is t aside from true muay thai enthusiasts… sorry I live in Calgary and have 1 place to train unfortunatetly for now and to all the so called Kru’s and Ajahns and “self proclaimed living legends” out there Fak off with your bullshit because now with the internet your years of bs will be discovered and unfortunately for the fighters who have had legit figths that is like myself, our career is questioable and we have to go around the world to Thailand to figth now in order to legitimize ourselves… sad but true.
It’s true thaiguy! The information age has made records and research that much easier. The smoke screen is beginning to open. To me Muay Thai is a ring sport as well as a martial art. It’s not the typical classical martial art that’s mastered via forms and cloistered secret enclaves interested in stockpiling bogus ‘mastery’. The ultimate expression of Muay Thai is in the ring where one’s true standing will be revealed in pretty swift order. I do advocate everyone get in the ring if only once even if you never intend to fight again. It’s part of the experience of MT.
The good news is the lying is curtailing off a bit but it’s still out there and it’s not going away. But just like the X-Files the truth is out there.
Here’s my advice to anyone considering a gym for Muay Thai: try a free day. And after your class watch and observe the trainers carefully. Their conduct with students and among each other should be your barometer. If they insist on the title I can tell you with near certainty you’re not going to want to be there unless you like fake krus and arjans.
This thread is stupid! First off, the word “kru” in thai means teacher. “adjarn” means teacher. There is no difference! That’s all… Teacher. No matter if you teach world class thai boxing, or sub par ameri muay thai, the title kru is just a thai word. Get over it! Second, Thai boxing in the States is not Thai boxing like in Thailand. Most Thai’s are orphaned children, fighting to find a way out of poverty. How can you compare it to those who practice Thai boxing here in the States for fun.. Or even the fighters who are dedicated, train hard, and go home at night. Thais live at the camp. The camp is their home. Nester, Mark, Sken, Toddy, all teach here in the States. Like in Thailand, the techniques are different from camp to camp. The styles are different, camp to camp… If they ran their gyms the way the Thais run their gyms, not one of them would be in business today. This Nester hater, and Dellagrotte hater dude, what’s up with you? What have you accomplished in life? If your such an expert, where’s your gym? I’ve lived, trained, fought in Thailand. My wife is Thai. Put Thai dai! Khun put Thai dai mai krup? I have a gym here in the States. And most of my students call me Kru. or Teacher, out of respect. I dont demand it… Thats just what they call me. Some call me by my first name. And that’s fine too.I train the fighters the same way I train in Thailand. I train the members of the gym with good technique, simple drills, conditioning, etc. Does that meen the regular average Joe is not learning real Muay Thai techniques? Your an idiot! Who have you fought bro?
^ whats the name of your gym……from what youre saying doesnt sound like a place i would want to train.
my kru would never say some stupid ass shit like, ‘who have you fought, bro?’
thx for pointing out your wife is thai. i hope you didnt think that would give you some validation.
@sitmt you have a point with saying that the tread is dumb. You can get crappy trainers in thailand just like in the states. (Just go to scorpion gym for instance) People think that just because it’s thai it’s good. Far from true. Your also dead on about the term kru and ajahn,it’s just a title and nothing to get to crazy about. I am however wary of people that need to be addressed as some title when their credentials are suspect. Not sure what the relevance of a thai wife is in this thread though.
No relevance. AT ALL.
BTW Sken and Toddy both started in the UK. The other thing is if that’s all kru and arjan mean then why use it at all since the USA is an English speaking country? There’s a big difference between respect and emulation.
I think it’s sometimes used to sort of ‘legitimize” the otherwise illegitimate teachers. I know of a school where the better students that teach the classes are called coach,more seasoned teachers are called kru and the two top dogs are called ajarn. I could care less about the title they call themself. I only care if they can teach me something useful. My original trainer just prefers to be called his name and he by far is better than alot of people i’ve trained with.
Agreed. And the insistence on title is almost always the first indicator someone stateside is full of shit. Its like a fat guy peddling diet pills. Unless you’re a big believer in the placebo effect they probably won’t work for you.
Just so you know Sken is still in the UK perpetuating his James Bond-esque story of escaping angry gamblers and jealous boxers.
We could all stick our head in the sand and accept all the ‘masters’ at face value or we could employ a little critical thinking and see that sometimes things just don’t add up. I recently did a piece on exploitation of Thais in the USA and not shockingly in every scenario it was perpetuated by ‘arjans’ and ‘krus’. Since sitmt injected race into this topic, let’s discuss it. Nearly every gym owner robbing Thais blind in the USA are of the Caucasian stripe. Coincidence or is that just how it worked out?
IF sitmt is so grossly upset that some of us call it the way we see it what does that tell you?
But then I don’t have a Thai wife.
Sorry Stack,but no Thai wife equals no credibility…..BRO!
LMAO!