31 responses so far ↓

• 1 Peter Moon // Jun 5, 2008 at 11:55 pm

  when i was visiting chiang rai, i asked one of the college students where the “muay thai club” or local muay thai enthusiast go…he looked at me weird and said “we have a TKD and judo club, but no mauy thai, thats for rural hicks and farmers” i was dumbfounded.

• 2 mmcmx // Jun 6, 2008 at 12:37 am

  so the wealthy thai do judo or tkd so the thai muay thay farmers are able to kick their ass big time if needed? Pretty funny if you ask me…

  I think you are right nop. i particullary think that gambling does no good to any sport.

  But MT should make sure it doesn’t end being a testosterone show like mma or wrestling too.

  How do you make a fight game big without all the macho thing? that’s the question…

• 3 mattlucas // Jun 6, 2008 at 1:01 am

  A lot of these comments remind me of the substance in AJ Lieblings writings. Liebling wrote “A Neutral Corner,” and the much more famous but still underread “The Sweet Science.”

  One of the things he indentifies the lull in popularity of boxing in the US is with the economy. There is no doubt in my mind that one’s economic status creates one’s view of life. That means that the sports one likes to watch, and particpate in are a reflection of one’s economic status.

  Working class culture here in america is akin to working class Thai culture. Not too surprisingly people across the globe work and people around the world like to do the same basic things. The working class here in the stes, that awful culture that glorifies the wwf, and cheap beer (the kind napodon drinks) in Thailand glorifies Muay Thai and cheap lagers (the kind I drink).

  I remember being looked on favorably by the working class Thai while I was in Thailand. When I said I was a Nak Muay, taxi drivers, Motorbike drivers, some food stall vendors would look at me with much more respect.

  Its no surprise that many of the most active fighters are from the poorest part of thailand (the Isaan area—Northeast thailand), after all the working class has nothing to sell but its bodies (at least in those areas).

  As Thailand grows economically through its tourism (which Muay Thai is definitely apart of) it begins to disdain working class values more and more. Thailand is becoming more bougeroisie. The society is identifying more and more with the spectacular order of things. We see this not only in the increasing effeminization of men in thailand, but also in the increasing desire for whiteness.

  The rejection of darkness in thailand, a desire not to be dark, is about rejecting poverty, about wanting to be materially secure. Poverty is ugly, ask any washed up Isaan Muay Thai figher.

  Bringing us back to the “motherland.” we see a a backlash of effeminization here in America in the growing popularity of MMA. The MMA fighter is the new all american jock. The ultimate warrior. Yet how much of this desire to be super masculine is a part of class? A part of economics. Who hasn’t felt the cut in their paycheck? Who hasn’t avoided a few more calls on their defaulted student loans? Who isn’t being emasculated in their daily lives here in the states? The United States is in an economic recession, and a bad one. Obviously a response to that economic condition will be physical. The more the economic insult, the further the physical response. Most of us are unable to actually carry forth with extreme physical response, so we get drunk, we talk shit, and we live vicariously through our heroes, BJ Penn, Tito Ortiz, Forest Griffin, etc.

  I don’t know how all these things will affect the growth of muay thai myself. In some ways I can see the growth of muay thai because of a desire to see conflict. There is catharsis in seeing two men fight. A catharsis that many americans may and do need. Yet Muay Thai is also a sport of respect, and respect is not an American value.

  some thoughts,

  all the best,
  gray mouser

• 4 mattlucas // Jun 6, 2008 at 1:04 am

  The above is me, I accidentally signed it as gray mouser, an internet psuedonym I have on an ill visited web board. Sorry kids for the confusion.

  matt lucas

• 5 pac // Jun 6, 2008 at 1:28 am

  just like my Thai gf’s family, none of them know anything about muay thai or don’t even know where lumpinee at. i asked them to buy me some twins products and they went to the mall and get me a boxing gloves made by some unknown brand which cost more than the twins gloves i can find on ebay… get ripped off!!!

  most of my Thai friends i met in high school and college can be considering as the upper class in Thailand and some are too damn rich, so they all thought i was crazy to go learn muay thai because they think it’s for those poor farmer to earn $$$, why would i want to be one of them???

  Nopstar, i understand your marketing plan, but i believe the reputation is the key!!! i bet your friend who never given a damn about muay thai asking you about Yod is mostly because of the big prize (USD150,000) yod got from contender asia. and Buakaw showing on the TV game show because of his big success in Japan. so the key is that can there be more Nak Muay be big and earn big buck from oversea?? more nak muay kick asses oversea and still get respect from oversea?

  very good example in US is NBA. how many people dream of being a NBA player, because of the money , the pride, the respect (and of coz the girls).

• 6 pac // Jun 6, 2008 at 1:36 am

  well, i guess muay thai in thailand needs a new Samart. handsome champion and kick all foregin fighters’ asses, haha. too bad yod doesnt fit to “handsome” , haha

• 7 Commando // Jun 6, 2008 at 3:35 am

  English football attendances rose markedly when they shifted from antiquated stadiums to brand new all seater arenas…….Lumphini is a relic and doesnt sell itself to an affable family man looking to take his wife and kids somewhere for an evenings entertainment… but the key to popularising the sport again is in breaking the idea that Muaythai is a sport for the poor………….

• 8 ShadyEskimo // Jun 6, 2008 at 3:37 am

  Like the Plan, and New Modern Stadiums sounds like The Future, and The way to Go.

• 9 mmcmx // Jun 6, 2008 at 3:49 am

  Does Tony Jaa help increase it’s popularity?

  They are the mecha of most badass fight style and aren’t proud of it…

  I mean, we catalans even celebrate the day of our defeat to spain in wich we lost our independence (11 september) as a national day!

  kind of hard to understand

• 10 Dean // Jun 6, 2008 at 4:05 am

  Commando - English football attendances did not rise when they moved to all seater stadiums, they actually fell as you can fit more people standing than you can seated in a similar size stadium.

• 11 Commando // Jun 6, 2008 at 4:39 am

  yes Dean but the stands are bigger now, Man U for example, average attendance 1985 was about 45 000, now thier ave attendance is 75 000, with, as is probably the same in many other grounds, special ‘family sections’ where kids and wives can come along and enjoy the game without feeling threatened by joe average foul mouthed footie fan. My point is because they built the new comfortable stadiums, they were making themselves more attractive to people who were staying away, this has been adopted by many clubs and i havent seen this sort of initiative in Thailand. Maybe ‘families’ would come to the stadiums as an evening out if 1) they knew they wouldnt be surrounded by gamblers or 2) they knew they would at least have a nice clean seat……..but thats a comment based on my western upbringing and maybe Thais couldnt give a toss about that!

• 12 kanaew // Jun 6, 2008 at 6:09 am

  Wow…this article is the most accurate depiction of the behavior and attitude of most natives in the city of Thailand.

  I’m an American born Thai who grew up seeing Muay Thai as the pride of Thailand, however I’ve seen the popularity dwindle down over the decades…it’s sad and I feel now is the perfect time to capitalize on the marketing given the rising popularity of SLAMM events, Contender shows, etc…especially being a child from an Isaan family from Mahasarakham, I am proud of Muay Thai and it shouldn’t be a shameful sport just because the promoters do not know how to market and bring more popularity to the legend of Muay Thai. Let me know if there is anything I can do from the States as I reside amongst the ignorant. Muay Thai respect will appeal more to families as most of these MMA shows/clowns make the FCC nervous.

• 13 tabloid // Jun 6, 2008 at 7:20 am

  Matt : My only concern with your post is the wording of your final sentence. I think respect is a ‘declining’ American value. It does exist, just in limited supply.

• 14 tong po // Jun 6, 2008 at 8:58 am

  As with many third world countries, class is a very big issue. Many people don’t want to be associated with the lower class. I see this is other countries as well. Nop is right in having to change the marketing- its done very well for MT in Japan and Europe. I just hope it doesn’t take away the badassery of MT.

• 15 mmcmx // Jun 6, 2008 at 10:44 am

  “I just hope it doesn’t take away the badassery of MT”

  Exactly my thoughts

  but is also true that little things bring worse results than being afraid of change.

• 16 HighRevinMT // Jun 6, 2008 at 11:46 am

  Good comments by all. I am from the states and it’s difficult at times to try and understand the internal struggles when I feel MT popularity is emerging overseas. There are very few sports that I am aware of that are driven by the need to support family and provide income. I am accustomed to the perception of fighting as a means of hobby and pleasure and possibly as profession; but not as an only-way-out deal as it may be in Thailand.
  I agree, MT development within Thailand itself must occur to ensure future prosperity, but I also worry how it will change the sport. As an American I do not wish for the sport to change at all; but again I am an outsider looking in who partakes in the sport as a mean of challenge and activity (not survival). I understand that Thailand is moving with the times and succeeding in innovations but I am saddened by the draining interest in the country’s own national sport.
  I agree that a tangent from the Contender Asia should be produced to stimulate Thailand’s own interest in the sport; perhaps have a West vs. Thailand and have the foreigners live and train in Thailand (as opposed to Singapore). I think this would be awesome as it would give the foreigners the opportunity to live and breath MT in its origin while instilling the notion of defending the country’s pride against challengers.
  Just my 2 cents.

• 17 GrChChinaman // Jun 6, 2008 at 2:12 pm

  talking about gambling ruining the sport, i totally agree. i have seen the gamedog scene utterly destroyed by gambling. when the gamblers came in, the dogs along with the whole fastlane scene turned into a back alley, scum bucket activity that was shunned by the rest of society. ultimately, you bring in money that has changed the outcome of so many matches, the champions have no choice but to sell out and get laid to waste on the wayside.

• 18 SE // Jun 6, 2008 at 2:48 pm

  i think MMA did a huge huge huge amount in america as far as making muay thai more popular. it will probably continue to do so.

• 19 Gio // Jun 6, 2008 at 6:13 pm

  I agree that the reason for MT’s dwindling popularity is the perception that it’s a sport for the lower classes, but I think there’s hope as well. If and when Thailand develops more fully into something resembling a Western country, there will likely be a harkening back to the national culture’s roots. The reason Thai bourgeois now don’t like being associated with Muay Thai is the classic developing country perspective that being Western is trendy, affluent, and classy. When they reach the gold and find out American/European culture is not all it’s washed out to be, I think there might well be a resurgence in the popularity of Muay Thai.

  The same thing happened when my country, Italy, was developing after the war. Speaking english, listening to english music, it was all much more fashionable than italian stuff. But now we’re so saturated with it that we’re going back to our cultural roots.

  Just some thoughts.

• 20 spydaman // Jun 7, 2008 at 1:57 pm

  HighRevinMT, I was also wondering why “Contender Asia” was takin’ place in SIngapore ( a country which of my knowledge has never produced a MT champion), other than in Thailand ( the home of MT). That could have done a whole lot for the marketing of MT in it’s home country. It’s about MONEY and POLITICS…and those two factors have the power to make and break anything beautiful!

• 21 justenzo // Jun 7, 2008 at 2:26 pm

  wow, i found this post a really good read.. everyones comments are so correct..

  It needs to appeal to a wider market.
  It needs to cash in on national identity and pride, like hockey does in here in Canada
  It needs to make the gambling not to so salient, try to keep it behind close doors.
  It needs to market individual superstars like Samart back in the day (its funny because in Western cultures, it focuses on the rags to riches story… the person that came from nothing to something, but pretty much all the MT stars in thailand fit that category)…
  With that last comment in mind, MT in thailand needs a Star, doesnt necessarily have to be good… but like someone said before just good looking… and more importantly come from an UPPER CLASS family, but i doubt this happening… I dont see upper class families subjecting there kids to muay thai at these young ages that usually produce champs, but someone please prove me wrong… And when that happens MARKET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GUY!!! show that MT is not only relegated to the lower class people…

  mt4life
  - justin

• 22 greghow // Jun 9, 2008 at 6:11 pm

  Holy shit. I’m from the Philippines and I can relate to most of the stuff you say about Thailand. All this metro crap is disgusting. Often I go out in a shirt, jeans and boots and I feel very very out of place because I’m not wearing pointy shoes and a long sleeved shirt with ruffles (Ruffles!!!???!!!!).

  In my country, boxing is much more popular and Pacquiao (and a few other boxers to a lesser extent) are real celebrities. These guys used to be manual laborers and now they’re doing quite well. I think Muay Thai gaining worldwide popularity can only help it’s popularity in Thailand. If it’s “fashionable” in other countries, it will be fashionable in Thailand (I assume Thais have the same mentality as we do here).

• 23 fight geek // Jun 9, 2008 at 6:45 pm

  I tend to disagree with most here.

  In my opinion, the solution to making MT popular in Thailand is to make it popular world wide.

  Like boxing, muay thai needs . . .

  1. International amateur competition with Olympic status.
  2. International professional competition with big $$$ prize money.

  And like MMA muay thai needs . . .

  1. good marketing.
  2. viewer-friendly format
  3. solid production values

  A popular, well-moneyed, international muay thai scene, would enhance participation AND popularity of the sport in Thailand.

  just my 2 cents.

  

• 24 greghow // Jun 10, 2008 at 1:37 am

  Just wanna add. I wonder how Brazilian Jiu Jitsu’s popularity in Brazil has been affected by its worldwide popularity which has been largely helped by MMA. I don’t know anything about Brazil (never been there) but I assume Brazilians are proud of their art especially now that it’s practiced and very popular all over the world.

• 25 kanaew // Jun 11, 2008 at 8:32 pm

  I definitely agree that MMA has opened up the emphasize on how these fighters utilize Muay Thai in his or her arsenal…

  People used to be like…wtf is Muay Thai? A type of food dish? At least it’s come this far…we can open up even more eyes through careful marketing and this forum is one of the perfect foundations that Muay Thai will thrive upon.

• 26 mschaiya // Jun 21, 2008 at 6:49 am

  Nice read Nopstar. I agree with everything you Zand everbody here) say. I’m a Thai, born in BKK. Currently I’m a law lecturer at Naresuan University in Phitsanulok. I have been searching frantically for a muaythai gym or camp here but there are none. All we have here at the college, as you might expect, are TKD and Karate clubs. In any case, there are couple of things, from my observation, which I believe to be major impediments to popularity of our muay thai art in this country.

  1. “Sport watching culture” is not a part of thai culture. As has been pointed above, the lack of modern and comfortable facilities as well as the traffic problems may play a part in this. But I think it is deeper rooted than that. For example, right now the gov is trying to elevate the profession football in Thailand by organising Thailand premere league (modelling after the english football). but eventhough everything is well implemented (including better stadiums), most Thais will continue to watch English football. They don’t have any sense that their country men need support too. Things in Japan is so different. Japanese have what i call “sport watching culture” and their support goes to their country men first, just look at the support they have had in J-league. J-league is no where near the quality of European football has to offer but 90% Jap wouldn’t watch higher quality “foreign” football unless their superstar is participating in it (i.e. Nakamura of Celtic); something like this is incomprehensible in thailand. I have a feeling that if we want to build a “sport watching culture” in this country, it must begin with football (the most popular sport in this country). Just overseas success of certain MT fighter would not be enough.

  2. The level of professionalism in the sport: In thailand, most Nakmuay are dirt poor and they fight to either support their family or their own education. This is why most Nakmuay quit fighting at the age of around 21 -22 (still in their prime) because they want to move on to find better job after they earn some college degrees. No one want to choose MT as a serious career path unless they are as good as Buakaw. So this is serious problem because we want more quality fighters who are more serious about pursuing their fighting career. If we cannot transform MT scene into a more respectable career path, then in a few years Japan and dutch fighters will emerge in more quatity and better quality. So I guess the goal is may be not just Thai version of Contender (which is a great Idea) but something more sustainable and long term.

  3. MT image doesn’t fit the taste of the middle class: This has nothing to do with the class devide but what i mean is that MT (in Thialand) for most people look more like a professional sport and have no place of amateur/ casual practitioner. This is true at least for me when I was younger. I wanted to learn MT but all I could find are the macho gyms who care only about producing professional fighters. I really felt out of place. The atmosphere wasn’t as comfortable as what you find in TKD or Karate club (no wonder they win popularty from Thai kids). It has gotten better now, especially with the action film like Ong Bak / Tom Yum Goong. Kids are now keen on trying their hands on Muay Boran. The most popular muay boran style is Muay Chiaya. I’m studying muay chaiya with Kru Lek (Ban Chang Thai: Ekamai soi 10) and the atmosphere is great; more suitable to casual comers since the goal is not to produce pro fighters but to teaching art of self-defense to general public (similar to Karate /TKD school). This is good for kids for it instill the pride and interest of Thai culture in them, and if they are interested in fighting pro they can move on to professional gym. So we need more of these muayboran schools. too bad very few people are qualified to teach.

  So that is my 2 cents. Thank for reading.

• 27 Gusnark // Jun 21, 2008 at 9:33 am

  mschaiya, nice post.
  You are talking about a current situation in Thailand and that can be changed.

  The best thing for Thai fighters is to fight abroad.
  Look at Buakaw and Yod, they are superstars abroad.
  And it should be televised in Thailand and acknowledged that they are superstars, that they are making great money! It’s all about money.

  Why Thai fighters aren’t promoting themselves with commercials? Maybe with healthy food, or energy drinks, just look at bodybuilders they’re making a fortune with their “preparations”.

• 28 nopstar // Jun 21, 2008 at 10:02 am

  mschaiya-

  That was spot on. One of the most insightful comments I’ve had to date. I think you hit the nail on the head.

  Would you agree that there is a certain level of self-loathing in Thai society? Let me elaborate on that further. I don’t really see this in many other cultures. Thai’s will often view things outside our own culture as superior. There is this emphasis that if it’s foreign it’s quality. It doesn’t matter it could be a product, business practice, ideas etc. It’s deemed superior… In the states it’s the exact opposite of this phenomena…

  Thai’s have often looked to Karate or TKD as more civilized, aka superior. After reading your comments I think the time line for our marketing plan is more like 25 years. I think the issue isn’t really that Thailand isn’t a sport watching culture. I think it’s a much more deep seeded issue of pride. I think you can build the best stadiums, make it cool etc. All of it wouldn’t matter. Their needs to be a paradigm shift on how Thai people view themselves and their country. How do you teach pride? You mentioned that after the success of Ong Bak their was a shift towards Muay Boran and Muay Chaiya… I know those are short term fixes, what’s the long term fix?

• 29 mschaiya // Jun 22, 2008 at 6:09 am

  Nopstar,

  Glad to know someone who cares. The “self-loathing” you talk abou does exist in Thai culture. But that can’t really be helped ‘cos when Thailand was forced to modernize the country (during King Rama 5 reign) we had to accept and learn all western knowledge and values; and, in effect, inevitably felt that our own are inferior. This is common in all developing countries. We just end up on the extreme side.

  But I truly believe that most Thais do not think that MT is inferior to, say TKD or Karate. Most Thai are proud of their MT art and if you ask them what do they think is a better or at least more effective fighting art between MT and other popular deciplines, the answer is almost always MT. So why do they still stay away from MT?

  I believe it is what I mentioned in last post, which is the fact that most Thai feel that MT has no place for them. The sport is just for ultra-tough isaan nakmuay. Apart from the class divide thing, one of the major factor is that most Thai view MT as “ultra dangerous” and it has been like this for time immemorial. People got the image of bloody-face nak muay, forehead split from elbow cut, knee-in the-jaw KO. Most Thai parents won’t let their kids go to the gym and practice it. However, this is not just in Thaialnd. If you remember some 20 years ago when Thailand start introducing MT to the world, Thai nakmuay basically crushed all the European/US/Japanese challenger and their reactions were like “oh shit this so illegal, they use elbow and knee too?” It took the European and JPN for a while before they get over and concede that “ok we want to do that too.” Still elbow is banned in most countries outside thailand, so the reception of MT is never “complete” for it is too dangerous to most people.

  That’s why I think Pride is not the problem in muay thai but the level of participation is. And that why I think having more muayboran/muay chaiya schools would help young people to appreciate the sport.

  The long term fix is, of course, to elevate the career of being nakmuay. This means we need new source of money to be injected into the sport and that means getting more people to watch it. So what people have suggested above would help i.e. building new stadium etc. But the priority (and the most difficult) is to remove the gamblers from the sport. MT is now largely financed by the gamblers. As the result, nakmuays’ fighting style is dictated by gamblers’ taste. The gamblers want “close fight” (not clearly superior performance) so they can bet money on it. This make MT (in thailand) looks boring at times whereas it looks much more invigorating when nakmuay fight overseas. That is also why K-1 wins more audiences even when most people call it “watered down” version of MT.

  So I really think that to get more people to watch, MT has to be more exciting and nakmuay need new culture, absent of gamblers. however, frankly I have no idea how to make that happen soon.

• 30 mschaiya // Jun 22, 2008 at 6:22 am

  Oh one last thing. I happened to read an article in the newspaper about couple of months ago. Thai scholars in human rights are now lobbying the lawmakers to ban kids to participate in professional fights before they reach 15 YO. The scholars reason that professional fighting would interfere with the growth of a child and may produce irreparable harm to the body, i.e. concussion, because young body has notyet fully developed.

  Modern world has finally got Thailand I guess. As a lawyer I understand their concerns, but if the scholar had their way we are never gonna see fighters like Buakaw or Saenchai who started fighting at 7 or 8 and have had as mouch as 300 fights in their early twenties. It would be a blow to the fighting culture of this country.

  I hope someone would block the damn bill.

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