Looking in the mirror
September 4, 2008 by nopstar
I try; I try really hard to keep an open mind and not to make snap judgments. I’m working on it… when you study a martial art it’s sometimes easy to get caught up in this style is better then this style etc. My nephews are really into their TKD, and sometimes I find myself shaking my head.
It seem like at every gym I’ve ever trained at there is that one guy who’s done kickboxing or karate and doesn’t feel like doing Muay Thai (at a muay thai gym). They show up and do their own thing, fine they aren’t bothering anyone they just don’t feel like participating. Maybe they’re just used to fighting in that style and can’t easily adjust? Who knows, point is why should I care? I catch myself looking over, and those judgments seem to creep back in…
Being Nak Muay’s were partial to Muay Thai, (obvious) were always going to be looking at other styles critically, how would they stand up to Muay Thai? So when I see someone who’s in my muay thai class doing TKD or San Shou there is a small part of me that thinks, “you know MT is far superior!”
Anyway I’ve been corresponding with a bunch of guys who train and teach Muay Chaiya (MC) in Thailand. I don’t really cover MC as I don’t know shit… I would rather not say anything then miss inform you about MC. In our correspondences it came out that a lot of MC practitioners, feel a certain amount of disdain for modern muay thai. They don’t like how aspects of it have been “watered down” etc. I was completely blown away, and I can totally see how one could feel that. I’ve spent some much time looking at other styles with disdain that, I didn’t even imagine our cousins/uncles would view us in that light.
I’m fascinated by this dynamic. I’ve asked one of our memebers who’s currently teaching in Phuket to write us a post… Would love to learn more.
I was reading some teachings by Ajarn Chah, a revered teacher in the Thai Forest Monastic Tradition, and one of my favorite quotes is around conventions. In Buddhism, our faith can be expressed in many styles and traditions. You have Tibetan, Theravada, Northern, Zen, etc. They all do things slightly different, but when you get to the heart of the matter it’s all Buddhism. People tend to identify, and cling to their aspect of practice. We bow like this… we pray like this etc. At the end of the day it’s all conventions. Ajarn Chah said clinging to these conventions is like… taking great care in peeling your bannana and eating the peel. You focus so much on the trappings of conventions styles, you completly miss the point.
That’s really interesting… I’ve often thought that although Muay Thai is by far the most effective of the popular martial arts, there are certain aspects which are obviously watered down in order to keep it a sport. The problem is when you go to these ‘extreme’ or ‘real’ martial arts, like krav maga or a million McDojos in the US. You can’t do live drills or sparring when your techniques include groin, throat, and eye shots, so I’m always a bit leery about how effective these martial arts will be.
Stil, I’d very much like to hear about Muay Chaiya. Is it older than Muay Thai, or is it a recent offshoot?
My Kru is Thai and has been practicing Muay Thai all his life, but is also a 6th dan TKD blackbelt (which he began when he came to the US to attend a university). Every now and then he incorporates some aspects of TKD that he’s found to be effective in Muay Thai. No man is an island and in todays world where everyone is more and more connected, fighting styles are going to rub off on one another.
I’m sure that Muay Thai today is different than it was 50 years ago, and that was slightly different than 50 years prior, and so on. Maybe there should be more emphasis on the difference between MT as a “sport” and the actual combative arts that it evolved from? That way no one gets upset about MT being “watered down.” I know that I wouldn’t participate in a sport where groin strikes were legal!
I took up Muay Thai as a sport, not as a method of self defense. So I’m not disgusted with the fact that it’s been watered down from what it was 100 years ago. I’ve never view the main stream martial arts as something to be learned for street combat. They have limited application on the street, as opposed to
eye gouging etc etc. That said, I bet Nak Muays nowadays hit harder and faster than in the past.
Now if they started drastically changing the full Thai rules, I’d get upset. As far as sport competition goes, I don’t think you can get more brutal than the current rules without seriously endangering the athlete’s health.
And Nop, you should unload a ‘proper’ kick on your TKD cousins and see how watered down they think it feels;)
Great post Nopstar, I like the way you put psychology behind it.
It’s no secret that everyone defends his “territory”, it’s though pretty funny how far would some go, including me. I found myself in situations where I would defend my statement for all cost, it is the “I’m right and you’re wrong” situation. Even if I “win” I didn’t benefit from situation, that makes me childish.
I find MT interesting and great discipline, if someone’s find TKD best, so be it, whatever makes you evolving and a better person.
LOL there was this little bitch TKD dude at our gym that came out trying to use TKD kicks in his shadow and not listen to our kru. he quickly,within the fiurst two weeks, joined one of our smokers. he felt the leg kicks. felt the boxing. felt the broken nose. then couldnt take it anymore and gave up before the ref stopped it. we never seen him again. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.
im not knocking TKD or its effectiveness. just the way this dumbass got a real hard lesson in fighting reality. I think TKD is a very effective martial art. just takes a really really skilled,fast person, with superhuman timing to make it really effective imo.
“taking great care in peeling your bannana and eating the peel”
brilliant.
i feel the same way when people insist that the ram muay or the traditional music is somehow central to muay thai and must be protected from evolution or hybridization at all costs. dang, the banana peel thing hit it on the head!
Bunkerd once told me, “you have 2 arms, 2 legs- you can fight anyone.”
” The problem is when you go to these ‘extreme’ or ‘real’ martial arts, like krav maga or a million McDojos in the US. You can’t do live drills or sparring when your techniques include groin, throat, and eye shots, so I’m always a bit leery about how effective these martial arts will be”
Lets be honest. You don’t need to run drills to ram someones sack or throat.
Oh, and Serkan is one of the ones that seems to use TKD pretty damn good in the ring. I think it comes down to the individual as much as the technique itself.
I hate seeing thai kids learning tkd, its like watching them turn their back their culture.
perhaps it will change when muaythai becomes an olympic sport.
not really. I am not thai and dont regret taking muay thai or adopting some of its culture one bit. I know a lot about my own martial art and my own culture. Taking Muay Thai doesnt take anything away from that.
I haven’t been training Muay Thai for long, I’d say about two years. I try to keep up with modern day Muay Thai while keeping the history in mind …but it has changed a lot. Sometimes better, sometimes worst.
I too feel that Muay Thai is superior to every other Martial Art, but I give most of them respect. My former trainer in Las Vegas, Nick ‘One-Kick’ Blomgren taught us to be open to all forms of MA, so I try to be.
Personally, I hope all Nak Muays just stick with MT and do not try to learn any other techniques. Its tough to spar someone who really knows how to box, is adept at different kinds of kicks besides the kicks in MT, in addition to MT. It makes it unfair really.
lol greg w. u have to be prepared for anything that is thrown at you that is within the rules………….
Interesting article.
if u want to see ancient must Thai go to youtube and type in mae mai muay thai chaiya there ur gonna see khru prueng he teaches it still in Thailand