Kun Khmer Boran

165

Nice to meet.

So a funny thing happened to me a couple weeks ago. I was helping to sell some shirts at the USF fights, when this Cambodian kid slinks up to the table. I’m assuming they were Cambodian because they were wearing Khun Khmer Boran shirts. With “Powered by Khmer” on the backs of their shirts. I was kicking back eating (surprised?) when I hear the kid say “I don’t like Muay Thai” okay… nice to meet you too.

Photo’s by Bedur

Seriously what the f are you supposed to say? I was sort of curious, and debated for a second if I wanted to engage him in a conversation. I could feel that I was feeling slightly irritated and saw that my intentions were more about getting a rise out of him, then having a honest conversation. So I just left it alone.

I was thinking about it yesterday, why would you walk around a Muay Thai event and then have one of the first words out of your mouth be “I don’t like Muay Thai” while wearing a Khmer fighting shirt? I thought about it and tried to view it from his perspective. What lack of social skills would make you blurt that out when first meeting someone.

What started off as annoyance has turned slightly into sympathy…

History

For those of you who don’t know the Khmer civilization is a very old and advanced culture. Their empire stretched across what is modern day Laos, Thailand and Vietnam. The Khmer empire was at war with several of it neighbors. Over the centuries their empire fell in decline and was eventually attacked by the Siamese in 1431.

There’s a large debate over the historical origins of Muay Boran. The Khmer people claim that their style of fighting Predal Serey predates other forms of South East Asian fighting styles.

I’m not a historian, nor do I know much about the subject, but is that so hard to believe? I don’t have any problem believing that at all. It doesn’t make me appreciate Muay Thai any less. People will always be nationalistic and will always argue this point. I guess I’m just not that interested in it. Fine Predal Serey is the oldest one on the block, the original seed. Ok, so know can we get along?

Politics

So I guess we can’t get along just yet… I found this on Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt. I’ll go on the record and say that I believe that this did happen. I guess at an ASEAN (Association of South East Asian Nations) meeting, Thailand wanted to rename South East Asian Kickboxing to Muay Thai or Thai boxing. The Cambodian’s wanted it changed to SEA boxing. I guess Thailand won out and the Cambodian’s ended up boycotting.

I know it was a requirement of the IOC that no sport be named after a country. So it looks as if the name will be changed if it wants to be considered for the Olympics.

Khmer Rouge

The Khmer people were completely ravaged by the Khmer Rouge in the late 70’s. The Khmer rouge wanted to take the Khmer people back to an agrarian society. They basically set Cambodian’s back 150 years in 4 short years. They accomplished this through a widespread campaign of genocide. They rounded up the educated, Doctors, teachers, artists et al… “the brains and history” of their country and killed them. It’s estimated that 2 million died during the Khmer Rouges 4 year reign (1974-1979) If you haven’t seen the “Killing Fields” you should check it out. Pretty F’d up. Their art their culture nearly exterminated.

Photo By Adam Carr

Rebuilding

The Khmer boxers have slowly been rebuilding. They have been trying to Market Pradel Serey similarly too Muay Thai. Basically Muay Thai was allowed to flourish and develop uninterrupted, while the Cambodian’s had more pressing concerns of civil war. It would be great if they could get back on their feet.

Note to the Kid wearing the Khun Khmer Boran shirt at USF

I’m not going to pretend that I “feel your pain”… or pretend I understand where you’re coming from… and I definitely can not identify with that huge chip on your shoulder.

However, I do however hope your art receives the recognition in deserves. I hope that I can someday walk into a Pradal Serey event and tell you I don’t like Predal Serey (just kidding)

In the meantime, you should educate people on Khun Khmer Boran, the similarities or differences to Muay Boran etc. You need to engage people, not insult them. People tend to tune out when you blurt out things like “I don’t like Muay Thai” when they’re sitting there clearly selling Muay Thai shirts.

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About Author

I started My Muay Thai back in 2006... I was tired of reading about MMA, and wanted somewhere I could watch real muay thai fights, be inspired and connect with others who love muay thai as much as I do... I currently live in London... when I'm not geeking out over muay thai you can find me bombing around London on my scrambler, ferreting out the latest street food gems.

165 Comments

  1. I’ve seen some videos of Khmer kickboxing on youtube and it looks closely related to muay thai based on what I saw. I’m sure back in the day, many years ago, that they influenced each other. Those countries are right next to each other right?

  2. Coming from a Cambodian background, I would say that Muay Thai and Khmer boxing are fairly similar. I take Muay Thai now and haven’t encountered any major differences. I would like to see Cambodia develop their sport more and compete internationally, but until they kick out the Khmer Rouge war criminals who run the current government, I’m afraid Cambodia will only slowly develop until these genocidal killers all pass away.

  3. They look very similar- pretty much the same fighting style. Do they compete much against Muay Thai?

  4. Every year from what I have read. Khmer fighters get a one day pass to Thailand to get thrashed by Muay Thai fighters. It’s sad…I think they should put actually Khmer Champions vs actual Muay Thai Champions so we can have a better idea other than those fights I have witnessed. From what I have seen of the style…Muay Thai as a whole seems to look much more polished than Leithwei.

  5. I’m not surprised. Alot of surrounding south east asian countries poot mai dee and talk shit about not only the art of muay thai but about Thailand. I hear it from khun viet, khun Malay, I purma and chinese duoy. The fact is they are jealous. When people poot chok or talk about fighting the first words on their lips are either muay thai or MMA. Now think about if you were that cambodian kid at that event and how you might react to all the attention that Thailand is getting, he wants to be proud duoy, but when he tells somebody he’s cambo they probably ask “Is that close to Thailand mai?”

  6. I JUST FOUND THIS WEBSITE AND READ IT.
    I THINK IT ONE OF MY BORAN BROTHER THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, IS IT AT THE SAN FRANCISCO FIGHT ON THE 28TH OF JULY, IF THAT THE ONE. WELL IT REALLY HARD TO EXPLAIN
    I CAN ONLY PUT IT THIS WAY, TO EXPLAIN HOW WE FEEL.
    IF YOU WORKING ON A PROJECT, AND YOU DO ALL THE WORK, BUT WHEN THE BOSS CAME AND SOME BODY TOOK IT AND CLAIM THAT HE DO ALL THE WORK, HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT IT???
    THAT HOW WE FEEL. WE JUST WANT OUR NAME, AND OUR CRIDET FOR INVENTING IT THAT ALL WE WANT.
    THE REASON OUR NAME HAVENT COME UP AS YOU MAY ALREADY KNOW BECUASE OF THE CIVIL WAR….
    BUT RIGHT NOW WE DONT HAVE SOMEONE TO PROMOTE US. AND THE KUN KHMER NOW IS COMING FAST. IF YOU WANT TO GO AND CHECK THE SCHOOL OUT THERE ONE IN STOCKTON, CA I WOULD BE GLADLY TO GIVE YOU THE CONTACT, AND MY FELLOW BORAN BROTHER WILL GIVE YOU ALL THE EXPLAINATION THAT YOU NEED IN PERSON.
    MY APOLOGY ON BEHALF OF MY FELLOW BROTHER IF IT WAS HIM. I HOPE YOU FORGIVE US. WE COULD OF START A BETTER CONVERSATION. I GUESS OF WHAT HE SAID CAUGHT YOUR ATTENTION.
    IF YOU HAVE QUESTION I WILL COME TO THIS WEBSITE AND CHECK FOR NOTE. I NOTICE MY BORAN BROTHER THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. IF IT HIM HE WILL SHOW UP HERE AND TELL HIM YOU HOW HE FEEL. BUT PLEASE KEEP IT AT PEACE.
    I APPRICICATE THAT YOU HAVE RESEARCH ON MY HISTORY AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND OUR PROSPECTIVE. I THINK I HAVE TALK TO YOU TO THAT NIGHT TOO.
    THIS IS BEEN A LONG HISTORY FOR US KHMER AND THAI.
    MUAY THAI IS SIMILAR TO PRADEY SEREY,
    THAI ARE USUALLY EXPERT IN KNEES,
    KHMER ARE EXPERT IN ELBOWS. THAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOW THEY ARE TRAIN.
    BUT KUN KHMER BORAN IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM MUAY THAI AND PRADEY SEREY, IT THE MAIN ART OF BOTH OF THEM. I GUESS MUAY THAI NOW CLAIM ALL ONG BOK MOVES BY TONNY JAA AS MUAY BORAN NOW.
    MUAY IN KHMER MEAN ONE
    BORAN MEAN ANCIENT. IDK WHAT IT MEAN IN THAI… BUT IT KHMER WORD FOR ALL I KNOW. .. IF ANYONE OUT THERE WHO CAN ENLITE ME OF WHAT IT MEAN AND SPEAK BOTH LANGUAGE PLEASE TELL ME.
    GO AND ASK A THAI PERSON IF THEY KNOW WHAT IT “MUAY” MEAN, CHECK THEIR DITIONARY…
    KHMER PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO PROMOTE OUR ART THRUGH MESSAING, THROUGH CHATROON, THROUGH ALOT OF WEBITE. AND THORUGH FIGHT IN THE RING.
    IFANYBODY OUT THER WHO ARE INTEREST, AND WANT TO HELP OR JSUT WANT TO FIND OUT ABOU THTIS PLEASE LEAVE YOUR EMAIL.
    MY EMAIL IS MCJDTJAFJROTC@YAHOO.COM
    FROM THERE I F YOU WANT TO LEARN I WILL GIVE U THE CONTACT.
    IT WILL BE FREE… IT OUR TRADITION TO TRAIN FOR FREE… MONEY HAVE NEVER COME TO THE TRAINER MIND. THEY JUST WANT TO TRAIN YOU AND SHARE THEIR PASSION, AND THE LOVE OF ART.
    AGAIN ON BEHALF OF MY BORAN BROTHER I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE, I HOPE WE CAN HAVE A BETTER CONVERSATION IN THE FUTURE.
    THANK FOR YOUR INTEREST IN OUR ART.
    WE HOPE TO SHARE WITH EVERYONE SOMEDAY.
    THANK YOU FOR TAKING YOUR TIME TO READ THIS NOTE. PLEASE DONT HESITATE TO COMMENT US. WE ALWAYS HERE TO EXPLAIN AND SHARE OUR THOUGHS.
    I HOPE THAT THIS WILL CLEAR THINGS UP A LITTLE BIT FOR EVERYONE. PLEASE EXCUSE MY ENGLISH…
    AGAIN FOR ANYBODY WHO ARE CURIOUS AND INTEREST ABOUT KUN KHMER BORAN WE HAVE A SCHOOL IN STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA, OHIO STATE
    FOR MORE INFORMATION PLEASE LOG ON TO THE WEBSITE ABOVE OR THIS WEBSITE
    http://www.angkorianwarriors.com/
    THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME
    HAVE A GREAT WEEKEN EVERY ONE
    STAY SAFE
    -KHMER PATRIOT

  7. did anyone else not read the above post because it’s in all caps?

    i have many khmer friends and they all have parents and grandparents that were murdered and that’s why they’re seeking refuge in the US still.

  8. There have been heated debates between nations about a true origins of South East Asian kickboxing(Pradal Serey or Muay Thai), which the Khmer does not need to prove to the world of her existent for her Angorian cultural and art is a living prove among the Khmer on the wall of Angkor. Until the Angkor temples are still standing, and Ta Prom still smilling, no one can claim it but the Khmer.

    Ask your self this question? But first you need to KNOW and UNDERSTAND of the South East Asia history evolve first prior to the start of debating about our (Asian) rich history heritage. The Thai changed their name from “Siam” (please don’t ask me what this word mean in Khmer because our king gave them this name) to “Thai” (free) as they were fully in depended from the Khmer and from the European expansion in 1939. The Khmer (Cambodia) kingdom exists over 3000 years of rich history from greatness to immensity within decades and decades of WARS. The Pradal Serey exists long since the great king of Preah Batt Jayavarman VII, one of the most forceful and productive kings of the Khmer (Cambodian) Empire of Angkor (reigning 1181c. 1220), not to mention the existent of Kbach Kun Khmer Boran, Bokator, Sro Ngair Pan just to name a few styles. So, hold your thought, did the “Tiger King” called it “Muay Boran” or “Muay Siam”? And by the way, the Tiger king appears on every corner of Muay Thai’s history was he the one who gave the name of “Muay Thai” or he gave the name of Muay Siam? Running around with their head cut off, if you follow their (the Thai-Siam) history, it is going in cycle because they are trying so hard to exterminate and manipulate the Khmer for which they are part of the Khmer history, notice the Khmer-Surin calls Isaan, ask your trainer what the “Isaan” mean in Thai? And where is the location in Thai Land? And if you happened to train at Surin, where they develop a lot of good fighters from, ask them if they are Khmer-Surin? You will be surprise to find as much Khmer population living among the Thai, guy like Buakauw or Tony Jaa just name a few.

    Let put it to the end of this hot debate. Majority of the world not interested of KNOWING how the Chocolate becomes chocolate, for them only INTEREST of it sweetness and careless of it root, the cacao tree or the chocolate tree or where it is produce. And there is some similarity of the Art of Kbach Kun Boran Khmer, which its sweetness is the Pradal Serey, or Muay Thai. Only a true artist will not only study the art but it people, culture and history as well.

  9. Kbach Kun Khmer Boran on

    Hey , I think i am one of those kids you are talking about in your article. Thank you for your article i like the way u made it. I want to apologize because im not sure if it was me or my brother that said it, but im sure we did not mean to say it within earshot of you and i dont mean to disrespect you as a person. If you wanna know more about our art and our philosophy or if u have any questions about the things khmer patriot or kirihingsa or myself have said already u can contact me at nairbmup@yahoo.com. thanks. talk to you soon i hope.

  10. Third perspective on

    I notice there were n’t any come back /debates about the sensitive topic, based on the few last posted..? Interesting indeed!!

  11. Third perspective on

    You need to read what have been posted so far, ‘Somebody’. You might learn or even understand a few things or two…

  12. did u dat 70-8o% of top fiters in thailand are of khmer ancestry. da top fiters cum from da issan provinces of thailand where da khmer lives, & was once part of cambodia. f u don’t balieve me jus take a deep research in to da backhround of da top thai fiters. like bukauw, jomhod, rabaam samdet. jus to name a few.

    i wish dat cambodia & thailand can get ova da issues, & compete like we use to before da cambodian civil war. bak den it was all about da fite, but now it’s gone all political. it could benefit both countries if we went bak to competing da way it was before da khmer civil war.

  13. on a completely unrelated note, i went to a cambodian+laotian wedding in oakland chinatown over the weekend. damn boy, y’all khmers know how to party! endless flow of remy & heineken, live cambodian band, circle dancing, and even a little pacalolo from the bride’s gangster younger brothers = good times!

  14. Took Thonng!!!!!! HEN MAI!!!!!!!!!! They might be mixed or close to cambo but they are from THAILAND!!!!!!! I heard everybody say it viet, jin, nippon, farang mun kun!! The fact is thailand is producing the best nak muay!!! If cambo mee good boxer, where are they??? NAI A?? Mai Hen NA KRUP!!!

  15. Play nice children!….even the if truth is that Muay Thai derives from Cambodia, we “farangs” don’t really care. To rest of the world it will always be Muay “THAI” or “THAI” Boxing. So let’s stop arguing about the origin and let’s start talking about the future of the sport instead and insures that its popularity increases. Other than some Thais and most Cambodians nobody else cares what Buakaws, Johmod or Rambaa’s origins are…we only care that they KICK ASS!!….HOLLA!!…Let’s all just get along!!

  16. Kwai lah??? Muenga, pom put wa, THEY ARE COMING FROM THAIAND!!!! CLOSE TO THE BORDER OR NOT!!!! NOT FROM CAMBODIA OR ANYWHERE ELSE NA!!! WHOSE THE SHIT RIGHT NOW??? BUAKAW CHAI MA?? HE IS THAI! BORN AND RAISED THAI! CLOSE TO THE BORDER? YES! BUT ON THAILAND SIDE!!! KAOCHAI MA??? Seems like you should do your research. Ina mao. The only asian countries with significant output of good fighters are THAILAND AND JAPAN. JING JING!!!

  17. Kote Law Loi-

    English please… I can understand you but 98% of this blog can’t.

    I think their point was those fighters are of Khmer descent.

    I’m not really interested in debating the point, sort of a fruitless exercise.

  18. Kun Khmer predated Muay Thai? you must be kidding. Them khmer should look around and see how popular is Mauy Thai and yet shameless stil claimed predated Muay Thai.

    Last weekend, one Khmer promoter held the event at in NH, didn’t have KHMER FIGHTER AT ALL and I asked him why, he simply said, This is America, I’m a promoter who promted those who wanted to fight.. But KHMER PROMTER WHO PROMOTED MUAY THAI? what this mean, can any Khmer out there tell me?? or simply that KHMER FIGHTERS ARE SUCK??

  19. By the way, only Mauy Thai boxing clubs such as SITYODTONG or Boston Mauy Thai could produce good fighter in Massachusetts. Fighters pay to train , I wonder why??? Vs Free KUN KHMER?

    In April 2007, 3 of Khmers fighters were beaten badly.. that is very embarrasing if you called KUN KHMER Predated Mauy. Maybe you come and visit us in Somerville instead of asking us to go to Stockton..

  20. Let wait and see… muay thai and pradey serey…
    time and place can be a crucial matters… you cannot assump anything yet, just becuase u come first and build your house first that doesnt mean your house is the biggest…
    Muay Thai is popular now aday… but every body knows that, im more interest and curious, about this kun khmer… people dont fight just to lied about something… very interesting…

  21. peace y’all, im jus saying doze top thai fiters are of khmer ancestry. im not saying they are cambodian. they live in thailand, fite in thailand & represent thailand. they are thai citizen of khmer decent or mix decent dats all im saying. why would dat piece of info get people all worked up man. jeez louise.

    kun khmer boran (ancient khmer martial arts) is da original khmer martial arts use by khmer warriors 2 fite on da battle field. it has armed & un-armed combat. un-armed it has freestyle kicboxing & wrestling. armed it has sword, spear, stik fiting, long staff & knife. da bow & arrow is also taught. these were da fiting art of ancient khmer warriors.

    ancient pradal saray (pradal saray means freestyle fiting) fites became a popular spectator sport. but bak den it look jus like todays cage fiting, u.f.c & m.m.a battles. freestyle no rules fiting, where fiters can use kickboxing skills & wrestling skills. it stayed dat way untill da french introduce boxing gloves, boxing ring & sum boxing rules. 2 make it more safer 4 da fiters. they also took out da wrestling & ground fiting. & jus left da stand up kicboxing moves. 4 better viewing 4 da spectators. dat wen it became modern pradal saray. but they still have ancient pradal saray fites in cambodia.

    why can’t thia & khmer fiters compete wif each ada like they did before da cambodian civil war, bak den it was good frenly competition all about da fite & fiters, not about thia or khmer. those were da days. but now there seem 2 be animosity.

    cambodia jus want 2 be recognise 4 da part dat we have in da south east asian kickboxing game. it’s not all juz muay thai in south east asia. there is also prada saray from cambodia.

  22. Why Can’t THAI COMPETE with KHMER FIGHTER? you must be blaimed again. In 2003 THAI Fighter Suriya Beat Eh Phutong badly. Eh Phutong the top fighter in cambodia, so I HEARD. Any way, here is the clip if your Khmer didn’t know that the competion was done…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obyjLKgsCKU&mode=related&search=

    When Khmer fighters were beat up , they stop claiming that Khmer the best fighters, but try to get recognise it orgine.. Man, when you khmer gonna stop?? Maybe Suriya was Khmer too???

    Come join us in Somerville at 100 Broadway, Somerville, Ma

  23. Forgot to mentioned, a few Khmer come to train with us MUAY THAI… I hope these students will appreciated MUAY THAI. I will named them out when they become a fighter, so at least when they are popular, at least we know they learn MUAY THAI, not KUN KHMER

  24. Eg The Peacemaker on

    Nobody can really say who or when the Southeast Asian Fighting style was first used except when it was first documented but my guess is it must have been used by someone somewhere in a fight at one time or another. Ancient people were brutal and kicked each others asses a lot…so some of the moves could have been used by Europeans, Americans, African or even the cave-men. It’s like the word fire, it is similar in so many languages but nobody goes round claiming they where the first people the make it. They were just cave men sitting around the fire and called it fire or something and went there separate ways. What I am saying is, it just lost history.
    By the way, the word Muay in Thai just means boxing and the word Boran also means ancient…so u see we are not that different at all. Infact we were probably the same people before all this nation crap was establish. I can go on about this crap but i will end up writing shit if I haven’t already done so.

  25. khmer fighter did use to go compete in thailand, if they win they get offer to fight for thailand or they get shot… that why not many khmer want to fight there. well now they are going to austilia so it dont matter if people dont know pretty soon people will know.

    pradey serey want the name to be know like muay thai

    Loas kickboxing is also pretty similart to these two. we dont care who better or not in the ring, u fighters know that. there always win and lose.

    khmer perspective just want to get reconize that all.

    and they dont say muay thai fighters sucks, or whatever, we dont put other martial art down… idk how a trainer train their fighter but didnt train them with the code of conduct.
    i seen fighter they are very respectful with one another… after the win ova is ova, the best man win. and it keep going on…

    brief history khmer empire was establish long before thai settle from south each asia, thai are the decent of mongol and some chinese… just if u wondering, every thing they have ever culture they have, and most tradition they have were influence by khmer…

    it like the japanese for stuff from china but they make better…

    most muay thai fighter in the U.S are not thai anyway… but everyone love it, pradey serey is not around because no body know about it as muay thai do. well now i guess everybody in this room does know.

    bat twa Loaes kickboxing too… they want thier name to come up too.

    well it all crap… it doesnt matter anymore. Kun Khmer boran is not pradey serey, it not similar to muay thai or muay boran or bat twa… so this is belong to cambodia.

    we dont trash talk you, so please dont trash talking becuase u are a trainer, and you are old enough… if that how u behavier, i guess that how u trian your people too. you train them to be the best, but inside just crap like you. but please… code of conduct is still be here… excuse my language, but the way u present your self in this room, no one will want to go to your school.
    i meet muay thai fighter who are much better fighter he is than the indiviual up there.
    enough said, it not a court so we dont have to fight ova it.

    kun khmer boran is khmer
    pradey serey is khmer
    bokator is khmer

    muay thai is thai
    muay boran is thai…

    now every body happy.
    the best man win. simple as that. no arguement

  26. hey SITYODTONG, SOMERVILE
    if u got BALLS bring you team to Cambodia and compete man. i heard you guy when to austilia idk if it true or not. well u can go ova to cambodia and try. they cant come ova here. they have no money…they get around 25 dollar per fight. so if u got ball go ova there and fight them…bring your best man all of them… make sure u practice your elbow alot more becuae ova there is legal. and in Mass is not legal. oh the shins too. okayyy… dot forget to post it in youtube, i be waiting to watch.

  27. sityodtong, u got 2 admit dat was a close fite though but da thai fiter was better & deserve da win. us khmer never claim 2 be da best, how can dat be. but zings can only get better 4 da khmer fite game.

    i’ve even dun muaythai my self, i train at 3 different gyms. if there’s no pradal saray gym around, jus train muay thai. it’s da same thing. only way i can get fites, funny zing is all my trainers know about pradal saray & they reckon there’s a link between muay thai & pradal saray.

    i like 2 watch muay thai fites as well it’s da same as watching pradal saray. except it’s in a different language. cambodai jus want 2 be recognise internationly so we can get da exposure, & hopefully our fiters can enter in 2 big money fite tournament. & from dat cambodia fite game will improve.

    muay thai have dun a great job spreading da sport 2 da world & making it popular. now there is pro fite circuits & tournaments. cambodia jus want a piece of dat pie, so dat it will improve our own fite game in cambodia. 2 get dat we mus be recognise by da rest of da world as having played a part in da development of sport fiting in south east asia.

    i hope cambodia become a power house in kickboxing again, like before da war. dat can benefit evrybody. by having more top fiters 2 compete on da international stage.

    oh by da way wat u zink of rabaam samdet dance moves, he cud use sum tips from usher.

  28. First of all, I tried to make my point as you tried your so hard. I didn’t talk trash but the true regarding the April fight and asked a simple question to why KHMER PROMOTER, PROMOTE MUAY THAI last fight in NH..

    MUAY THAI is THAI why your people kept on saying KUN KHMER PREDATED MUAY THAI? dont you think you trash talk on us???

    We train the best fighters and looking for a good fighters to fight with a great compensation, If you can accomodate that why not? Would you do that? just to setup the fight for us in Cambodia?

    As I remembered, in April event, The KHMER PROMOTER had some loser fighters in the card(FACT) but last event, he didn’t bring KHMER FIGHTER to fight. I will get to the bottom of it to make my point. If he doesn’t asnwer me, I will ask those KHMER STUDENTS WHO TRAIN WITH ME.

    Any way, we dont fight for cheap, if you can compensate us well, you will see all my good fighters go to CAmbodia. Just hope you can make it for us and stop suggestion to us but to make it happens…

  29. Poot angrit na. Where are the cambodian fighters at??? All these thai fighters of cambo decent?? Did all of you good genes go to thailand??? WHy doesn’t cambo produce any fighters worth giving a fuck about??? Stop being jealous and HOO PAK NA HEA. Honestly, if cambo had any decent fighter, U NAI A??!??!?! MAI DAI HEN NA!?!?! MA LEAW!!!! Tamai lou mai>??? NAK MUAY MAI MEE INA HEE MUENGA!!! KWAI!!! CAMBO HUA MEUNG!!!! NEXT STOP AFTER THON BURI?? CAMBO!!! MAI GLUA NA WOI!!! You not scaring anbody with that come here and see. I will do everything in my power to fight there(Inshallah). And it’s still siam to me. Why is it i’ve never even heard of “khmer boran” until after muay thai made the come up?? Now all off a sudden china orinated thai boxing with san shou and vietnam was doing before and is really better , put yer yer. FUCK THAT like crabs in a bucket, we at the top and they trying to pull us down. Too late, we already here.

  30. This is really starting to get outta hands!….why don’t yall exchange numbers and call each other cuz right about now yall starting to sound like keyboard warriors. I don’t think this whole argument is worth it…..it’s all just pride talking. I had no idea there was so much animosity between south asian and it’s really sad. Let’s try to keep the peace. Peace!!!!

  31. there no khmer fighter in Mass that why u couldnt figure that out. THAT why khmer promoter promote muay thai. i guess it all about the money .

    SITYODTONG, SOMERVILE
    i have a question, u said khmer promoter promote muay thai fight in NH is this the same guy that promote the april fight in revere?

    not alot of khmer fight are in the U.S
    if u want to go to fight in cambodia, why dont u ask the khmer promoter, he got alot of connection. im pretty sure he can do sometin about it. umm…. it an idea for u, if u win the khmer fight ova in cambodia, we will shut up. after all it money.

    the best khmer fight is in cambodia, if u are looking for them , they are in cambodia, u find alot of them. umm… however i heard there are khmer kickboxing in long beach, ca if u want to fight them go and challenge them like the old days, if u win there club be shut down. and they win, u will shut it down. that how it is doe.
    anyway… everything come down to money…. bussiness is bussiness and i agree wit everyting u said.
    okay let peace… serious we write to much in here.
    if u are looking for to fight khmer, im sure that khmer promoter that promote muay thai can set u up to fight in cambodia, idk how much money is involve.
    i guess to him it bussiness…. talk is just talk…
    well, peace everybody that the last time i want to write in here.
    i hope and looking forward to see khmer fighter fight with muay thai fighter on national television. … i willl see it someday…
    -sam

  32. im jus saying, da thai people have always been influence & have adopted khmer culture, customs & tradition. is it so hard 2 believe dat they mite of also adopted da sport fiting of pradal saray as well. & called it muay thai. i mesan is dat so hard 2 beleive.

    any way enuf of politics, im a fite fan jus like evry body here. da fite standard in cambo is as good as thailand, i been 2 both countries & seen da fites. it’s money dats da big difference.

    i want 2 see more fites between top thai & khmer fiters, dat be an awsome spectacle. i mean they are nex door neighbors why dnt it happen more. i zink they let politics get in da way. it will great ly benefit both countries.

    my favourite fiter at da moment is bukauw & a khmer fiter name bird kham. diz kid is a freak man, he da khmer champion at 60-65kg. i wud pay big bucks 2 see him take on a thai champ. dat be da fite of da new millenium. (*_*)

    muay thai & pradal saray fiters have alot of respect 4 each ada. they’re in da same fite game. they like 2 fite & have a passion 4 da sport. & they dnt relly give a dam about da politics. it’s all about da fite. wen u in da ring it’s all about ur skills aint it. ur political views dnt mean jak. it’s ur fiting abilities dat determines victory or defeat.

    yo ernesto, are u the ernesto hoost?. any way i like 2 know hu won da s-1 king cup in thailand. can sum 1 tell me.

  33. I was suprised to see last fight too when that dicriminated Khmer promoter promoted Mauy Thai. I was rejected by him a few months back when I was asked to train kun khmer.

    Any way Kru Sityodtong, I could answer your simple question. Although , I and that discriminated promoter have some differences, but After all that promoter tried to promote Khmer fighter, all his group were biting his head off. I had some exchanged messsages with those khmer snake students.

    That KHMER PATRIOT was sold that promoter out as well, and lied to everybody that there is no KHMER PROMOTER TO PROMOTE, Yes I know why.. He tried to inviting me to join him, but I told him to fuck himself…

    According to one of those kid in his group told me that KHMER PATRIOT only had a few smoker fights that were it, and claimed to be master of trainer for some loser division. How could you ask everybody to go to stockton???

    I hope I answer your question KRU SITYODTONG. I think the promoter got enough of KUN KHMER..

  34. KHMER PATRIOT on

    First of all, i am not and i didnt claim to be master of trianer or watever u are accusing me off. GOD OF WAR u are making this up along as you speak u just mad that he reject u. man enough said. we move on now…
    well we never claim that there no khmer promoter, as of right now we need more. there not alot of khmer fighter around MASS or in the U.S anyway…
    I am surprise that khmer promoter promote muay thai. Bro you werent there at the club, so u dont know what happen. and please leave it at that.

    the first time i wrote up there, is to apologize to the guy that one of my bro was saying unessary thing. and if they want to know we do have school in stockton, and ohio. that all
    i live in MASS>… i dont even train anymore… man why u gotta lied about stuff like that.
    i dont benefit from this shit…
    enough of that… i hope i see u some day we have a good talk…
    takecare
    stay safe
    -KHMER PATRIOT

  35. I wonder if those Muay Thai fighters still wear the Khmer Yan (Yantra) sacred language on their head?
    Thanks.

  36. why dont they fight more often, cuz of khmer is not in muay thai world kickbozing, they have a big problem with that name.

    i think KHMER PATRIOT trying to say is that the khmer promoter or any other promter, should go to cambodia and promoter those fighter if they want too. , and i know those khmer fighter dont make big buck, they make top $100 per fight. that becuz of the donation as the fight goes.

    khmer fighter in cambodia dont even have the money to travel, they dont have any support. so they can only compete in the county and sometime promoter from austilia bring some of the top fighter to fight in austilia and bring fighter to fight in cambodia.

    we want them to get to the U.S more money….

    that the situation. they got no money.
    there bearly no khmer fighter in the U.S. beucase there no gym.

    there are very few training place that all…
    it very hard to explain… i guess just to let it flow.
    i love to see fight also.
    btw BIRD KHAM is train in Boran Samay… not pradey serey…
    and he really good at that. he my favorite khmer fighter of all of them.

  37. Muay Thai is originated from Khmers. Those Muay Thai fighters still wear the head band of Khmer Yan (Yantra) sacred language around their head.

    Khmers are coming back slowly with their Bokator, Kun Khmer Boran, Pradal Serei etc..

  38. kun khmer boran be good 4 m.m.a fites.

    dude bokator is kun khmer boran. but diz school of kun khmer boran wud rada call it bokator, dan kun khmer boran. bokator is da name of da stik fiting they use in kun khmer boran. i prefer da old school of kun khmer boran. diz bokator is 2 flashy 4 me.

    cambodia will neva join da W.M.C ( world muay thai council) but don’t u reckon dat there shud be a new belt or title created so dat fiters from thailand & cambodia can fite 4. i zink dat fite fans deserve 2 see da best fite da best. 2 much red tape & politics getting in da way.

    i always hear stories from da old people, dat before da cambodian civil war, khmer & thai fiters use 2 fite each ada all da time, like there was a pro fite circuit betwen da 2 countires. da fites wud draw in big crowds. it was good old fashion friendly rivalry. but now i really dnt see it happening again. it wud be great if it did happen again though.

  39. Khmers don’t care the WMC.

    During the Cambodian Civil War, the Cambodian economy was greatly derailed in which Thailand used the opportunity to monopolize kickboxing and promoted its style, Muay Thai to the world. The Thai have set up an international boxing committee in which almost 100 countries participate which led to why Southeast Asian kickboxing is widely known as Thai boxing. Cambodians have argued there was no such thing as Muay Siam that existed before the name change of Siam to Thailand. At an ASEAN meeting in 1995, Thailand wanted to rename Southeast Asian kickboxing as Muay Thai or Thai Boxing. The Cambodians proposed to rename the sport as “Sovanna Phum” boxing or “SEA Boxing”, which represented Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar. Sovanna Phum means “golden land” in both the Khmer and Thai which came from the language of Pali and refers to mainland Southeast Asia. “SEA” is a popular acronym referring to Southeast Asia. Unfortunately, Thailand would not compromise. In a battle for culture heritage, both countries are not giving up. At the 2005 Southeast Asian Games, Cambodia did not enter the Muay Thai event.

    Recent exposure of Khmer Kickboxing to the western world has come from traveling journalists and tourists.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pradal_Serey

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_traditional_wrestling

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokator

  40. it not the same as before ever since thai made
    W.M.C.
    khmer fighter will not go ova there and fight , and thai dont want to go to cambodia to fight. because the judge mightnot be fare, only through knock out. but the thing is that even not the reason, khmer fighter dont have any chance to fight around the world, until khmer promoter or any other promote go ova there and sponser them to fight international. that why u see thoe white ppl go to cambodia to fight…. they have money to go ova there and challenge the champoin to fight. and Janpanese do go there to fight too. but never cambodian will go to fight in other contry. cuz the fighter have no money. they dont get pay much. every penny they make goes into the rent, food, support the families and u know khmer family size are… and if they open the gym, the money goes toward the gym. it a sad thing, like EH Phutong, since the the OG everytime he fight rich people donate money for him to fight. they call in and donate the money, but he only get like $25-$100 per fight. thank to the donater he be able to make more money. so most khmer fighter have to fight everyweek. to keep the food running for their family. that why they have moreand 100 fight in there record.
    if theese fighter come to the U.S they will make more money, and dont have to fight as much as they have to fight ova in cambodia. Theya re fighting for there family.
    The best fighters of Cambodia make 25-100
    they got no house , they got no money, the gym they open is free.
    KHmer champion Eh phuntong open his gym, and anybody can go and learn it for free. IT the same every where in cambodia. but if u to the ring to fight. it fare to say that you share some of the fight money toward the club. and im talkiing about 25 or 50 okay nothing big. Most khmer gym are free. if u think just becuz it free and they are suck you are dead wrong. if u dont belive me go ova to cambodia and see it yourself. how can they charge people that go to there club, if those people have no money, they are poor. so by go to the gym and train, it just a like a job for them and it a skill that they learn and than fight to make money to surpport their families.
    they will only charge enough to keep the gym running. i telll you… it the passion that motivate the trainer to do it. because cambodia is poor people dont have job, some end up go to gym to train becuase they willing to fight , because they love the art, and becuase they want to surpport their families.
    im glad now some khmer fighter the new generation get to fight international in austilia so they make a little more money.
    they cant leave the country to fight becuase of those power people they want to come to other country too. those fucker dont even know how to fight but since they are in incharge if they cant com, u cant fight… period.
    If it not becuase of that. u probably see khmer fighter come to the U.S to fight already.
    well excuse my grammar but im sure u can read and understand.

  41. it sad to see and hear khmer promoter promote muay thai, the fucker nned to get ova with his group and stick with his goal. it the people in cambodia that need him the most, people here they have families they make enough money to support them self.why that fucker dont understand.
    The fucking promoter just lost his pride, he just lost everything he stand for.
    MONEY TALKSSS ha….
    i guess it buessiness…. it all about money….
    shame on you. U fucking dum bitch…
    if u have enough of those KUN KHMER group. so what move on, u not a fucking baby, they dotn need u and u dont need them. why should they kiss your ass for, they have people support them and it united states okay, not cambodia so you cant get thing done with every command u call. u not a commander dummm ass.
    why da fuck dont you go ova to Cambodia to sponser those poor fighter, dont tell me a khmer promoter doesnt khmer his people are poor. Man where the fuck u think u coming from.
    i came from the same country as you do, u piss me off.
    as a leader u have to stick to the plan. u have to expect obstilce, people that start bussiness, they are taking the chance to lose money, and everything. so people become rich and people become poor. if u fucker lose a little bit of moneyt and quite how da fuck u gonna get rich?

    Watever u told thoes kun khmer group, whatever u stand for, now u just lost it. you told them to left and than you go right. u fucking dum ass. you are the leader why do you keep changing your word.

    why u do people like u surrive khmer rough? man ….
    Leader have the ability yo lead, u dont have shit, u just a dum fucking guy with some money and a right place and try to do thing that is not right for you.

    despite people give you crap you should go to cambodia and make a difference, that what a leader should do.
    you think khmer general, go and kill some people and become a general… u have to earn your respect and you have earn you way up there. if u jut got up there, your soldier gonna be like who da fuck are you, how da fuck u get up here?
    enough said, fucking shame on you, you lost khmer pride, you lost ervything u stand for, and you lose faces, for your people. u have the ability to help them and u didtn. fucking shame on you.i know there no khmer fihter around. that why u should go to cambodia, but u dum ass not smart enough , instead go promote muay thai, i dont hate muay thai, but for someone to say they hate muay thai, and promoter muay thai , u are a fucking two face, u are a fucking fruad, and u are a fucking devil, you are as fuck up as you could be. everything u do is money, i hope when u died u realize that u cant take money with u. it your pride that people remember, but u dont have shit. as of now if u fucking read this, you gonna died with nothing.

    so get your ass to cambodia and do something, you are one of 13 millions khmer that can bring khmer figher to U.S is it so hard to bring them ova here? or you just want the entire fucking khemr fighers to kiss u ass than u bring them?
    guess what, u fucking dum ass, they have pride. unlike u got nothing expect money… money face.
    dam fucking shame on you, and you should be asham of your self. dont call your self khmer, call you self thai.
    cant belive someone like him can do someothing for cambodia but instead u just go differnet direction.
    you probably not good sticking to your word. that why those kun khmer group caught you and maybe that why they turn and take a different direction. maybe they realize they are being use and lead by a dum ass like u. that why they turn on you.
    they dont need to kiss anybody ass around here. fucking dum ass. those kid are not poor, what u think, that you own them all?
    my suggestion is that u should stick to your word if you plan to trick them…
    that way they wont know that u are TRICKING THEM dummy.

    enough for the day…
    HAVE A NICE DAY…

  42. GOD WAR, thanks for the forward email regarding the conflict between KUN KHMER students and promoter. I could see why he put MAUY THAI show instead and to why that promoter didn’t say anything. I quest, just let khmer bite their hand.

    Regarding KUN KHMER club in LONG BEACH, well, let me tell you all a bit. That club could only survive until today because of the KUN KHMER hiding under MUAY THAI ( Big sign). RON is the promoter for that club didn’t help KUN KHMER at all and I know why. Long Lorn was stand out in the club but didn’t go that far either. There is no point to fight with them, if BAN the trainer take away MUAY THAI, KUN KHMER will fall.

    Back in KORN KING ERA, CHAN REACH CHEA KING ( Khmer king) was THAI’s king godson and lived in THAI kingdom for 7 years after KORN took over the kingship in Cambodia. CHAN REACH CHEA KING lied to THAI KING by took 5000 THAI ARMIES with him to fight KING KORN ( If you khmer could read KORN KING History). It took 5 to 6 years to defeat KING KORN, but remeber, 5000 THAI ARMIES helped to fight or should I said THAI STYLE TO FIGHT?. You can read the rest of your history..

    It take MAUY THAI to win MUAY THAI, So after all King Cub, MAUY THAI WON and the best KHMER FIGHTER LOST and no one put a gun on his head, so stop saying this or that regarding KHMER FIGHT IN THAILAND.

    After 30 years from ROUGE ERA, Cambodia could produce not many good fighters AND they only fight with TOURIST KICKBOXING SMOKERS on their national tv. So how good are those khmer fighters? you can fill in the blank…

    At the end, I’m glad the khmer Promoter promoted MAUY THAI and because of him, one of my amature fight become professional fighter on Main Event.

    Khmer open MAUY THAI club or Khmer promoter promote MAUY THAI, Or perhaps this how they got the idea to why MAUY THAI from Khmer? Khmer history is your people’s word again THAI history. Today where THAILAND’s at compare to Cambodia will speak itself, but Khmer rather blaim on this or that, but at the end KHMER WHO DESTROYED KHMER.. ( My last message)

  43. i agree KHMER WHO DESTROYED KHMER, beuae of people like that dum promoter, that why.
    well im happy that one of your fighter become a professional.
    after all it bussiness for him… i guess pride have nothing to do with it. that his point of view.

    between history there always conflict between the two country. let leave it at that and leave it up to fate.
    as for now
    cambodia have BOKATOR… so it dont matter about muay thai or pradey serey…

    BOKATOR IS ONLY BELONG TO CAMBODIA.

    so to khmer brother out there. let just stop argue with them. and just bring BOKATOR and KBACK KUN KHMER BORAN out. those two style has nothing to do with muay thai and pradey serey. so it end this mad ness.
    khmer promoter promte muay thai will he just destroy khmer hope. and hope he happy.

    and no we didnt get muay thai to use in war… but let leave it at that.
    we use bokator and kun khmer boran…
    forget about pradey serey…
    the two art will come out soon.
    it gonna be in history channel and it written by antionio g.

  44. Jesus I’m glad I can facilitate such animosity and hate. I guess you live and you learn. If I would have know that by writing this post I would have stirred so much deep seated divisiveness among Thai and Khmer I would have left it alone.

    In the end I hope all of your realize none of this matters, there all conventions that your clinging too.

    Personal example, I consider myself a devout Buddhist. I used to have issues with other forms of Buddhism, particularly Zen. My teacher told me that if I was too focused on conventions (rituals, tradition, forms, language etc,) it would be like taking the utmost care to peel a banana perfectly only to eat the peel. If you focus on the external stuff you’ll miss the fruit… you follow?

    Be well.

  45. Man if you do not like the discusion and do not want to read the responses then BOUNCE MOTHERFUCKER PAI LAO!!! How can you be so facist as to reply to the topic then when others responed say to exchange email, if you don’t like it don’t fuckin read it!!! If you not Thai or Cambodian you won’t understand. You can try but you can’t relate and/or grasp why somebody feel like we feel. And i talk like that cause i walk like that. kochai ma?

  46. Let me be the voice of reason here. Many people here have said they are not historians, well I am a historian. I majored in Asian Studies at UC Berkeley and I can tell you the story of South East Asian Martial arts. I’ve been to Yunan Province in China. This is where the Thais and the Laotians came from. The Burmese came from Tibet. The Cambodians are native to Southeast Asia. I have been Cambodia, Thailand, and Vietnam as well. I can say definitively that Kickboxing is a Khmer invention.

    Thais claim to be descendents of the Nanchao and the Dali state of Yunan Province in China. When the Mongolians conquered that part of China that was when the mass migration to present day Thailand. Thais or “Dais” as they are known in China say they are the real Thais, which they are. Modern day Thailand is made of a mix of ethnic groups. Southern Thais have Malaysian/Indonesia ancestry. Central and northeast Thailand have Cambodian Ancestry. ONLY THAIS that look Chinese, meaning they have beedy eyes and light skin are really ethnically Thai. The rest or of other ancestry.

    The Angkorian Empire ruled South Vietnam in the East to Burma in the West To Thailand in the North. This is why this area of the world share the same fighting style. If you want to know the history of Muay Thai, check the Wai Kru. This dance does not exist with the “Dai” people in China, nor the Vietnamese in Southern Vietnam, nor the Tibetans in China. This dance only exists in areas once controlled by the Angkorian Empire. All the stone temples you find in Thailand were created by the Khmers. These temples are the origin of South East Asian Martial Arts. Thais are from Southern China so there building are made of wood like the Chinese buildings. Khmers on the other hand made buildings from stone.

    So though the Thais are the best in kickoxing right, it was indeed invented by the Khmers. Many Thais must recognize that there ancestry may be Khmer. For thais who are light skin, they are the ones who can rightfully call themselves ehtnically thai.

    By the Way. Eh Phoutong speaks Thai. Fought in Thailand 6 times and is 5-1 on Thai soil.

    So people grow up. This is the history. If you want to know the history of Muay Thai, follow the Wai Kru and follow the ethnic Thais’s history.

    By the way, the written language is based on the Khmer written language

  47. BTW my last post is meant to be informative and nothing else. As I said, the Khmers likely invented the art, but the Thais are best at it. But in a way that is not necessarily correct. Both modern day Cambodia and Thailand are descendents from the Angkorian Empire. Many Thais, especially in the Surin Province are of direct Khmer descent. So in a way the Thais did invent the art.

    Also, please understand that this Thai and Khmer thing is out of control. I was in both country and the hatred is profound. The Khmer/Thai history is a bitter one. They need to bury the hatchet and move on. The history is one bitter rivalry. I understand it well. It is not easy but both side have to move on. In a way it is kind of sad. Both countries are remnants of the Angkorian Empire. To a certain extent hey are brothers. As I posted, many Thais are of Khmer descent and the culture of Thailand much more resembles the culture in Cambodia than the Culture of the “Dais” in the Yunan province China. For a more complete history of Thais before the Lanna, Sukothai, and Aayuthya, people here should look up Nanchao and Dali. Go to the Yunan Province in Southern China by the Thailand Border. Ask the People about the “Dais.” You will see that they are more different from the modern day Thais than Thais from modern day Khmers.

    I respect the Khmers for not joining WMC. I think the Thais are wrong in calling Kickboxing Muay Thai when the Khmers, Thais, Burmese, and Laotians all do the same art. The main reason for calling it Muay Thai is about money and tourism. If there is legitmate proof that Muay Thai originated solely from the people who immigrated to modern day Thailand from Southern China, then I would love for that person to post it. But the art is everywhere where there is Angkorian descent and not where there are “Dai” descent (Southern China). I have spoken to WMC representives in Thailand. The main reason why they don’t want to change the name is, and here is a quote “Everyone knows what Muay Thai is, who knows what South East Kickboxing is?”

    BTW it is also sad to here people, especially farangs, saying they do not give a crap about Muay Thai’s history, whether it is Khmer Origin or Thai Origin. This is totally disrespectful to a proud culture. I hope people who have this view are not ever allowed into a Muay Thai gym again. Certainly these people should not ever where the mongkol and do the ram muay. And muay thai without the ram muay is just kick boxing.

    Oh BTW:
    Frank, If you have the address of Eh Phouton’s gym in Cambodia, let me know. Please post it here. Hopefully, I will be able to travel to Thailand and Cambodia next February. I will be in Penom Penh and then fly from there to BKK. I like to meet Eh Phoutong and see how the training is different from Muay Thai training in Thailand.

  48. To Sityodtong of Somerville:

    Where did you get that lying history from? From the Thai history written by Thais?

    I read the Spanish and the Khmer history of the Khmer King Ang Chan Reachea, there is no such story as you stated.

    The Spanish said the Thai King ordered the Khmer King (Ang Chan Reachea) to hand over the Khmer white elephant to him, but the Khmer King (Ang Chan Reachea) refused.
    The Thai King was furious and he wanted the Khmer King Ang Chan Reachea’s head.

    The Thai King made up a false story by lying that the Khmer King Ang Chan Reachea died and he got the Khmer King’s head. In the meantime, the Spanish were looking for the Khmer King Ang Chan Reachea and they found the Khmer King Ang Chan Reachea in Laos. The Spanish were very happy to find the Khmer King Ang Chan Reachea alive.

    You should read the below book of the Khmer King Ang Chan Reachea true history written by the Spanish.

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v161/simoneek/King/?action=view&current=cambodiabygabrieldesanantonio.jpg

  49. To Sytyodong of Somerville:

    One more thing,
    When Burma captured Thailand in 1548-1592 and 1760-1767,
    Khmer Kings took Khmer armies to help the Thai Kings to kick Burma out of Thailand.
    Should I say KHMER STYLE TO FIGHT?

  50. Guys if you want to know the history and culture of South East Asia, its pretty simple. Go before Sukothai.

    Again Burmese are from Tibet, Thais (Dais) are from Yunan Province in Southern China (They are still there), and Laotian also from southern China. Khmers are native to South East Asia. These disparate group came together only one time in antiquity, and that was during the Khmer ruled Angkorian Empire. Much of the Culture in Thailand, Burma, South Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos comes from this period. These culture all have “Muay Thai.” The Dai people in China have martial arts but the ceremonies and all the cultural stuff around a Muay Thai fight is not present in China.

    And Thais of Thailand today have to realize that being of Thai Nationaliy, that is, a citizen of Thailand does not mean you all share the same ethnic history. Southern Thais, Central Thais, and Northern Thais come from different backgrounds. Thais from the Surin Province, where Tony Jaa and Buakaw is from can easily trace their history to Khmer origin. The “real” Thais, are still in Southern China. They are call the Dais. They will tell you they are the real Thais. Hey that is what they tell me. Not a single one of them look like Buakaw. They look Chinese, as most Northern Thais look. So Thailand really is an empire and not necessarily a good way to define ethnic groups. Therefore to say Muay Thai originated in the geographical area of Thailand may not be wrong, to say it originated with the original Dais from Southern China seems to me wrong.

    With that said. The Khmers also have to realize that certain groups in Thailand, Laos, Burma, and even Vietnam have claims to the Angkorian Empire cultural heritage as they do, whether these people know it all not. Modern Cambodia, though the closest relatives to the Angkorian culture, is not the sole disaparates.

  51. I read people talk about historical sources a lot. THe real historical source of early South East Asia were all written by the Chinese. Funan and Chenla, the nation states in SEA before the Angkorian Empire, is only known to us through the accounts of Chinese merchants. I believe also that much of what we know from the Angkorian Empire is known through Chinese sources.

  52. end of arguement lol thank alot . that info really help clear thing out
    Minh thank. well everyone have a nice day…

  53. To Sityodong of Somerville:

    No one hates you because you’re gay.

    I just want to enlighten you and those who don’t know the true Khmer and Thai history.

  54. To Minh:

    Thai were Tai not Dai.
    Tai people escaped from their native land of Nanchao during the Mongol invasion. Khmer Kings allowed those Tai refugees to settle in Khmer Land. Later in 1238, two Tai chieftains rebelled against Khmers when Khmers became weak. Tai took over Khmer city of Sukhotei and changed it to Sukhothai and kicked Khmers out of Sukhotei.

    Not all Khmer history and culture came from the Chinese missioners. Part of Khmer history and culture were carved on the stone wall of Khmer temples in Cambodia.

    If everyone visit Thai pagoda in Thailand, will see Khmer Yan (Yantra) written in Khmer language hang on the wall of each Thai pagoda. Thais knew that Khmer Yan (Yantra) is not Thai, just look at the link below. But Thais still claimed Khmer Yan (Yantra) as Thai. Thais can’t change Khmer sacred language written on Yan (Yantra), because it’s Khmer sacred language to protect them from the bad luck.

    The problem between Khmer and Thai culture is that Thai never give any credit to Khmer people for using Khmer property.

    http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s247/Horitexan/Thai_Temple_Tattoo.jpg

  55. Rumtum,

    YOu are right. Tai not Dai. But I am trying to phoneticize it the way the people in Yunan province does it. I did not mean that all South East Asian History is recorded by the Chinese but much are. I have been to Siem Riep and seen the stone carvings.

    In any event, you should know that the Tais in China are much different than the Thais in Modern day Thailand. Nanchao was actually Dali by the time of the Mongolian invasion.

    Most of the Stone temples in Thailand are actually Khmer temples. The Thais, because of their Chinese influence built wooden temples.

    Either way the temples are the origin of the Ram Muay and Muay Thai itself.

    Again, many Thais today can probably trace their heritage back to Khmer ancestry. Buakaw and Tony Jaa are examples. I wished they can just settle their differences.

    The hatred between Thai and Khmers are much deeper than cultural theft. I really don’t think is theft since so many Thais are of Khmer descent. Thailand has in one way or another affected Cambodian politics for over 500 years. I don’t want to get into that, but its a new millenium. The Cambodians need the Thais to help develop the country through trade and aid. Khmers must give the Thais credit for marketing Kickboxing and Thai Culture (which is much influenced by Khmer Culture). Other Asian countries have sold their cultures out. Thailand and Combodians have embraced their culture. I respect both peoples for that. This is just wishful thinking but I like both peoples.

    I just wanted to add my two cents to this debate. I am all about intellectual honesty. I am Chinese so could care less about who’s art is it. I know SEA history through my Chinese history. Nanchao and Dali I know quite well as I did my research in the Yunan province.

    The Thais did not invent Muay Thai. Kickboxing belongs to all the descendents of the Angkorian Empire. This means people in Loas, Southern Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, and Thailand. The Thais and the WMC are wrong for what they are doing

  56. MINH
    i am honor that you come in here and clear our history out.

    i personaly dont have the address to Eh Phuthong gym address bro.

    but guess what if you go to Cambodia, Phnom Phen,

    ask any MOTTO texi driver they know where his gym is. lol that the best thing. and im sure u can track him down it should be easy.

    im pretty sure his trainer is not that differ from muay thai becasue it prodey serey. but khmer people tend to use more elbow than any other country in the world. that the differ from us to them.

    regard KUN KHMER BORAN and BOKATOR
    you should check this two art out too.

    bro i promise you that you never seen anything like it. it not and it doesnt like like muay thai or predey serey…

    if fact predey serey and muay thai are just a little brieft techni to KUH KHMER BORAN…

    BOKATOR can be found in Cambodia, and like i said any MOTTO texi driver know where it is. they are good with places and expecially a well know places like EH PHUTHONG GYM. he the best fighter ofcourse they love him. but sometime they think he accept money and stuff they throw glass bottole at him… well later found that he couldnt fight that much becuase he got bit by a dog.

    if u really want Eh PHthong address i can probably get it for you… but it will be easy if you jusg go to PNH and ask MOTTO driver

    if u live in CALIFORNIA go check stockton school out. it not like a gym… but these art are master to family only…
    they did not share it to the world until last year….
    the reason they been hinding it,

    becuase past king target all general and best fighter art to be kill so there will be no rebellion.

    it a fact of khmer history. not many people know that. im sure u are not aware of that either… if u want me to contact u please leave your email.i am happily to speak to you. after all into history. love it
    takecare bro
    -FRANK

  57. MINH
    i am honor that you come in here and clear our history out.

    i personaly dont have the address to Eh Phuthong gym address bro.

    but guess what if you go to Cambodia, Phnom Phen,

    ask any MOTTO texi driver they know where his gym is. lol that the best thing. and im sure u can track him down it should be easy.

    im pretty sure his trainer is not that differ from muay thai becasue it prodey serey. but khmer people tend to use more elbow than any other country in the world. that the differ from us to them.

    regard KUN KHMER BORAN and BOKATOR
    you should check this two art out too.

    bro i promise you that you never seen anything like it. it not and it doesnt like like muay thai or predey serey…

    if fact predey serey and muay thai are just a little brieft techni to KUH KHMER BORAN…

    BOKATOR can be found in Cambodia, and like i said any MOTTO texi driver know where it is. they are good with places and expecially a well know places like EH PHUTHONG GYM. he the best fighter ofcourse they love him. but sometime they think he accept money and stuff they throw glass bottole at him… well later found that he couldnt fight that much becuase he got bit by a dog.

    if u really want Eh PHthong address i can probably get it for you… but it will be easy if you jusg go to PNH and ask MOTTO driver

    if u live in CALIFORNIA go check stockton school out. it not like a gym… but these art are master to family only…
    they did not share it to the world until last year….
    the reason they been hinding it,

    becuase past king target all general and best fighter art to be kill so there will be no rebellion.

    it a fact of khmer history. not many people know that. im sure u are not aware of that either… if u want me to contact u please leave your email.i am happily to speak to you. after all into history. love it
    takecare bro
    -FRANK

  58. To Minh:

    What did you say? I don’t hear you! LOL!

    “Khmers must give the Thais credit for marketing Kickboxing and Thai Culture (which is much influenced by Khmer Culture)”???????????????????????????????????????????????

    Do you know why Khmers had to take Thais to the world court for Khmer Preah Vihear temple?
    Let me tell you why, because Thais claimed that Preah Vihear temple belongs to them. Do you understand a different between “Belong” and “Influence”?
    The world court ordered Khmer Preah Vihear temple belongs to Khmers, because Thais have no clue about the true history.

    You know what, if Thais can just admit like you said that “Thai culture is much influence by Khmer culture”, I’ll be proud of Thai people.
    But unfortunately, Thais never ever admit such thing that their culture is influenced by Khmer culture.

    We, Khmers don’t care about Muay Thai is taken to the world. We, Khmer are proud of what we have and what we are. We don’t steal anyone property and claim as our own like Thais did. One day, the world will find out the truth and guess who will be hurtful and shameful.

  59. RUMTUM

    i really agree with u bro…

    plus thai and vietnam are pushing there border into our land everyday to make there land a bigger place to live.

    all we are saying just give us the credit….

    than we wouldnt be any trouble like this.

    i guess there alway a good and a bad guy….

  60. big shlong from hong kong on

    i’m a muay thai-pradal saray fan, but im not stupid, i know dat muay thai is a thailand version of cambodia’s pradal saray. 2 me fiting is da same evry where in da world. all human being fite da same. we punch, kik, knee, elbow & wrestle. but it’s da culture, custom & tradition dat mke it unique 2 a country or ethnic group.

    dats why muay thai & pradal saray look da same, coz it’s da same, but pradal saray is da original. it’s so plain 2 see, da custom & traditions of muay thai are of khmer origin. da thai are from southern china but u dnt see any original thai culture & custom in muay thai. jus da khmer custom & tradition. even da muay thai fiters tattoos are khmer tattoos.

    wen i started training muay thai, evry body told me it was thai, but wen i did sum research i found out a bout pradal saray. & all da connection make sense, evry zing clik 4 me. so now i know dat muay thai is thailand version of khmer pradal saray, but so wat! dats all good. i dnt like muay thai any less, jus means i have a better understanding of it & also i appreciate pradal saray. dat means more fites 2 watch. (*_*)

    funny zing is alot of muay thai people are ignorant of da tru history & develoment of da art, jus like i was. jus good 2 know da truth. i wonder why my trainers did’nt tell me da truth. may be they did’nt know or they did know but did’nt want 2 tell me.

    muay thai have nuzzing 2 fear from being connected 2 cambodia’s pradal saray. muay thai have nuzzing 2 loose but pradal saray have evry zing 2 gain. may be it can be a good thing. it can get rid of da animosity & fiters from both countries can go bak 2 doing wat they do best & dat is fite.

  61. Thank you Rumtum for your detail explanation, I agree with you.

    Maybe Muay Thai is taken to the world, but Muay Thai will never be made to the Olympic sport game, because the Olympic charter forbids any kind of sport that has its name of its own country.

    Khmer boxing will rise again; it’s only a matter of time and money. I’m not a boxing fan, but after reading this guy article, he made me want to learn boxing :-)

    http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=552

  62. Thanks for all you comments. As you can see I am trying to be peace maker. I might not be Khmer, but over a 1/4 of my dad’s side of the Family were killed by the Khmer Rouge. I still have family in Cambodia. I only discovered the Truth about Muay Thai because I went all over Southern Asia tracing my family’s history from China to Cambodia to Vietnam. Having said that I have spent time in Thailand I love the people there. I just wished the two people can get along, especially once they realized that many of them come from the same ancestry.

    I am also aware of recent history. The Thais have a lot to answer to with their involvement in Cambodia and even Vietnam the last 50 years or so, but I think its better of both sides move on. I hope politics don’t separate people. Trust me, as an economist, Cambodia would benefit greatly if they improve their relations with the Thais. Yes, I understand that the Cambodians have been wronged by their neighbors lately. Next to the Africans, Khmer history over the last 300 years or so is the most tragic.The Cambodian’s have made their peace with the Chinese, who are investing heavily in Cambodia right now, but making peace with the Thai’s and the Vietnamese will go a long way economically. For their own sake, Cambodia needs to make peace with Thailand even if they were the ones wronged.

    RUMTUM,
    I know the Thais have made ridiculous claims. They claim they built Angkor Wat when the city Angkor Wat is in is called “Siem Riep” or Syam Defeated. But understand politicians on both sides are playing off the historical hatred between the two people, its too long to get into here, but trust me on that.

    If my life goes according to plan in the next ten years or so, I will start a business in Cambodia to help the local economy so my heart is with the Khmers so that is why I try to convince them that peace is the way to go. The truth will take of itself over time.

    Frank,

    I am very familiar with Bokator. I actually have the address of Mr. Kimseam (he might be on the show “Human Weapons” soon) in Penom Penh. I am still debating if I should study Pradal Serey in Cambodia or Bokator. Bokator is better for self-defense, but Pradal Serey is so much more fun. But thanks for the info.

    I live in San Francisco so Stockton is far away, but I heard their was a Khmer guy name Kenyata who teaches at 5th & Harrison, near Fight and Fitness. I have not had a Chance to check it out since I have been working so hard lately, but if anyone knows about a Khmer Boxing Gym in San Francisco, please post.

  63. Thanks for all you comments. As you can see I am trying to be peace maker. I might not be Khmer, but over a 1/4 of my dad’s side of the Family were killed by the Khmer Rouge. I still have family in Cambodia. I only discovered the Truth about Muay Thai because I went all over Southern Asia tracing my family’s history from China to Cambodia to Vietnam. Having said that I have spent time in Thailand I love the people there. I just wished the two people can get along, especially once they realized that many of them come from the same ancestry.

    I am also aware of recent history. The Thais have a lot to answer to with their involvement in Cambodia and even Vietnam the last 50 years or so, but I think its better of both sides move on. I hope politics don’t separate people. Trust me, as an economist, Cambodia would benefit greatly if they improve their relations with the Thais. Yes, I understand that the Cambodians have been wronged by their neighbors lately. Next to the Africans, Khmer history over the last 300 years or so is the most tragic.The Cambodian’s have made their peace with the Chinese, who are investing heavily in Cambodia right now, but making peace with the Thai’s and the Vietnamese will go a long way economically. For their own sake, Cambodia needs to make peace with Thailand even if they were the ones wronged.

    RUMTUM,
    I know the Thais have made ridiculous claims. They claim they built Angkor Wat when the city Angkor Wat is in is called “Siem Riep” or Syam Defeated. But understand politicians on both sides are playing off the historical hatred between the two people, its too long to get into here, but trust me on that.

    If my life goes according to plan in the next ten years or so, I will start a business in Cambodia to help the local economy so my heart is with the Khmers so that is why I try to convince them that peace is the way to go. The truth will take of itself over time.

    Frank,

    I am very familiar with Bokator. I actually have the address of Mr. Kimseam (he might be on the show “Human Weapons” soon) in Penom Penh. I am still debating if I should study Pradal Serey in Cambodia or Bokator. Bokator is better for self-defense, but Pradal Serey is so much more fun. But thanks for the info.

    I live in San Francisco so Stockton is far away, but I heard their was a Khmer guy name Kenyata who teaches at 5th & Harrison, near Fight and Fitness. I have not had a Chance to check it out since I have been working so hard lately, but if anyone knows about a Khmer Boxing Gym in San Francisco, please post.

  64. Ok, 1st, to Mr.Mihn “Mr.History Books”. Kickboxing is khmer invention?? Kickboxing is a human invention. Is it not possible that some earlier civilization fought with hand and feet? No of couse not mr. history books!!! Khmer created that. And if if thai boxing is a branch of some deformed mutated khmer boxing tree(WHICH IT MOST DEFINETLY IS NOT) khmer still suck ass at muay. Muay thai means thai boxing. Khmer cannot create muay thai for they are not thai, Kochai mai? The fact is thai boxers are the best at muay thai because this is the land in which it was founded, I am not saying fighting was created there but muay thai definetley was. Who are known the world over for strength stamina technique and overall execution of training and fighting in kick fighting??? THAILAND!!!! Who births and breeds the best kick fighters??? Thailand!!! WHERE WAS MUAY THAI BORN?? THAILAND!!! So khmer may infact have their own version but they surely have no place with their name next to muay thai. Let’s be real, there are no champions coming from cambodia, chai ma?? they might be close to the border but that’s a complete and total cop out. If your genes are so mighty and all that bullshit then why can’t cambo produce decent fighters and stop making excuses that all the thai fighters are secretly i cambo. BULLSHIT!!!! That means your country and enviroment is so shitty that they came over to thailand just to evolve?? JING PAO!??? Is that so? Ya’ll are stupid. E KWAI!!! and by the way FUCK PURMA!!!!!! May they die slow and horrible deaths except for my brother Burma(T).

    and DUM DUM, I mean Cum sum, or Wonton whatever you call yourself. Of course you read thai history written by thais. HEA ALAIWAH?? Am I suppose to read american history by african??? Or French history from japan?? E KWAI DUAY!!! Stop being so fucking jealous that shit is unbecoming!!!

    Think about it. Your on a site called mymuaythai.com, not mykhmerboran.com!!! Stop shitting on people. Go back to your third world shit hole and make something of yourselves. Bitching and crying about other countries accomplishment won’t get you recognized for anything except being a bunch of sucka ass nobodies with nothing but some temples and shit.
    AND IF IN FACT KHMER INFLUENCED THAI BOXING AND KHMER TRUELY INVENTED IT (WHICH THEY DID NOT) IT”S YOUR FAULT FOR SUCKING AT IT SO BAD NOBODY PAY YOU ANY MIND!!! AND YOU SHOULD FEEL STUPID THAT SOMEBODY DOES SOMETHING THAT YOU CREATED 1 million Times better than you!!!!

    Even vietnam got more champions than you!!!! MEUNG I KWWWWAAAAIIIII!!!!!
    THY CHA CHA DAI MAI??!!?

  65. Kote Law,

    Why are you attacking me? You think I have something against Thailand? I love it there. The people there are great, the food is excellent, the beaches are beautiful. I love Thailand because the people there respect their culture. I wish China, Vietnam, and Korea can say the same. I am saying this even though I am Chinese.

    I have said that the Thais are originally from Yunan–the descendent of the Nanchao and the Dali empire. Am I wrong?

    I have said that modern Thailand is really an empire made up of people of many different ethnic origin, including Khmer. Am I wrong? Are people from Surin Province, including Buakaw and Tony Jaa not of Khmer descent?

    Wasn’t Thailand formerly part of the Angkorian empire?

    Doesn’t the Ram Muay have Khmer origin? Even if Muay Thai was invented by the descendents of the people from Southern China, was the Ram Muay? Is Muay Thai really Muay Thai without the Ram Muay?

    Isn’t the Thai written language partly based on the Khmer script?

    Am I wrong? Or is it that you can’t handle truth.

    YOu seem to be so proud of being Thai. Maybe you can enlighten me about your people’s history?

    I have been to Yunan (China), Cambodia, Thailand, and Vietnam. I went to these places because I study their economics, politics, culture, and history. This is first hand research. I may be wrong, but the history I presented is what I learned on my travels. Since you are Thai, have you made the trek to Southern China to learn about your cultural heritage?

    Anybody can say they are proud of being this and that. I am of Chinese descent my family is from Teochow China (The same city that Taksin the Great’s family is from). You ever heard of Taksin the Great? Have you ever taken time to study your people’s history and culture? It is a great history. Come back to me when you have. I have a sense you know nothing about your own history. Sad that a foreigner like me know more aobut Thai history, politics, and economics than a Thai.

    BTW if genes are the reasons why Cambodians are not Muay Thai Champions, how do you explain Buakaw? You think he he has more in common with you or with Eh Phoutong. You might go to Southern China, look a the Tai, people, your people and ask why don’t any of them look like Buakaw and why do they look so much like me, a Chinamen.

  66. To: Kote Law Loi

    WOW WOW WOW !!! Hold your horse Mr. Junta! You’re completely blind and out of control. This site is Mymuaythai.com, but the subject is Kun Khmer Boran!! Open your big eyes and read all comments before acting like a foul junta!!!

    All you can say is Muay Thai from Thailand and the land was found, that’s it, that’s all?
    Do you know why the world court ordered your dumb ass out of the Khmer temple, because Thai like you who have no clue about the true history and always acted like a foul junta!!

    The French also took Thais to the international court for copying their Louis Vouitton. Thailand now is not allowed to show anymore fake Louis Vouitton on the street of Thailand. The French have to hire their own detectives to survey their product in Thailand.

    Thailand was well known as “Copy Cat” country in the 80s and the 90s. Thailand stole and copied things from other country and started to patent or claim as their own.

    Recently, the Thai junta gov’t has used Compulsory Licensing ‘breaking the patent’ against American Abbott drung Kaletra and Merck Frosst drug Efavirenz and changed the names to Aluvia in Thai. Abbott and Merck Frosst have to blacklist Thailand from the news drugs.

    The tourists and journalists who visited Cambodia, they already knew about Khmer martial arts just like this guy Antonio Graceffo who wrote the Khmer Bokator article.

    Khmer boxing is unique; no other country can compare with Khmers. The music plays during the fight, the traditional Khmer tattoos on the fighters, the Khmer band head of Yan (Yantra) on the fighters are all written in Khmer sacred language. All these, Thais stole from Khmers and named as Muay Thai.
    Thais can’t change the Khmer sacred language on Yan (Yantra) because the Khmer sacred language is protecting them from the bad luck.

  67. To Minh:

    Are you trying to make peace by wiping out Khmer culture? And tell Khmers to give credit to Thais because some of your families were killed by the KR?
    You know when you’re not Khmer, you don’t understand and you don’t care about Khmers.
    I’m sorry for your family, but to blame all Khmers is not fair. You should have your sympathy towards the rest of Khmers who suffered and tried to live their lives once more again.
    You’re not the only one who suffered, there were almost 2 million Khmers were killed by the KR. You don’t just blame on Khmers, because the KR killed some of your family.

    Vietnam and Thailand supported the KR. The Vietcong and the KR teamed up together fighting against the US. When the US withdraws out from Vietnam and Cambodia, the US made Khmers killing Khmers. Because when the US bombed Cambodia in order to kill the Vietcong, there were almost 1 million Khmers were killed in the US bombing.
    The KR hated their own people who supported the US bombings and the reason why they killed their own people. The Vietcong broke their promise with the KR, the KR was trying to get Khmer land of Kampuchea Krom back from the Vietcong, so the Vietcong invaded the KR. Unfortunately, the KR killed too much their own people, they became weak, so the Vietcong and the Khmer Vietminh took over the country easily.
    Thailand is still supporting the KR today, you can go to Pailin and you’ll see Thais are dealing with the KR for the Khmer gems.

    Can you see how this Thai guy Kote Law Loi acting against Khmers? Now, do you still want Khmers to give credit to these Thais Junta?
    I don’t think so! LOL!

  68. Rumtum,

    I understand your pain. My surving Cousins in Cambodia all married Khmers. When I go to Penom Penh this Februray I will staying with them.

    My father’s side of the family was wiped out by the Rouge. But he still loves Sihinouke. He tells me the best time in his life was under Sihinouke. I know what the Thais, the Americans, VietCong, and the Chinese did to Cambodia. That was what I was alluding to when I said the Thais were involved in Khmer politics. That is also what I meant by Cambodia having the sadest 200 years next to the Africans. Hell Vietnam still controls Cambodia by controlling Hun Sen. When the Thais said that they create Angkor Wat, the Khmers naturally reacted with protest. This lead to fall in tourism, costing the Khmers millions. The Cambodian government then gain legitmacy by comdeming the Thais. At the end the losers where the people of Cambodia. The government of Thailand and Cambodia are playing games with the ethnic Tension between the Two people. On a side note, I tried to start a factory in Cambodia and was basically told by the government that I had to give Hun Sen 10% of profits. So I am putting my money where my mouth is. I plan to volunteer in Penom Penh when I am not training. So I know the Khmer plight. You forget that the Japanese killed millions of Chinese in WWII as well.

    Kote Law does not speak for all Thais. He called me a “Wonton” because I am Chinese. Well I am not just Chinese, but Teochow. Taksin the Great and the Chraki dynasty’s first queen is all of Teochow descent. Kote Law is basically calling his beloved King’s ancestor’s Wontons. Phillip Wong the founder of Fairtex I believe is Teochow as well. So this tells you how ignorant he is. By insulting my people he is insulting the ancestors of his beloved Chakri dynasty. I had a talk with an educated man from Chualangkorn University at the BKK airport. He refused to talk about Thai politics until we landed at SFO (San Francisco), then he went off on some of the things his government has done. He still loves Thailand but disagrees with some of Thailand’s policy and the action fo the Thai king. But if he says anything on Thai land he would be put to jail. My point is not all Thais are like Kote Law.

    Economically there is economic development through the “contagent effect.” I don’t want to explain what that is but most economists think that Cambodia will benifit greatly from the Thai’s economic development during the 90s and Vietnamese developement now. Basically what is good for the Thais and Vietnamese are good for the Khmers. Cambodia is already prospering from China’s development as the Chinese are the biggest developers in Penom Penh. If you go to Penom Penh you will see that many of the Hotels and businesses have Chinese signs.

    I am trying to make peace here caused I deeply care for Cambodia and I have had very good experiences in Thailand. Whether you like it or not, you have to admit that if it were not for Thailand people would not be as interested in Cambodia as they are begining to be. The Thais did a great job at displaying their (to some extent your) culture to the world. As a Chinamen, I can relate to this. For over 50 years the West thought that everything that was Chinese was Japanese: Sushi, karate, Kanji, Kimonos, tea, bonzai plants and so forth. Over time as China developed, the truth came out. But the Japanese made Chinese culture interesting by selling it as their own. I have made my peace with Japanese people. I love visiting Japan. I think Thais and Khmers should make peace as well.

    That is my two cents. My goal was not to start a feud with anyone here but to explain a history as I know it from my travels in SEA. I plan to go to Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, and China (for the Olympics) next year. So you can see I have love for both peoples.

  69. To Minh:

    First, you need to learn how to write the words “Phnom-Penh” and “Sihanouk” correctly.

    Second, you don’t have to understand my paint, because I don’t have any paint just to explain the world what’s fake and what’s real.

    Third, here they are;

    You know if you did not post your last comment, I might consider you as a good educated person, but after reading your last comment, I give you zero. Because your hatred against the KR who wiped out some of your family and you put the blame to all Khmers by telling Khmers to give credit to Thais despite the fact that Khmer culture was stolen by Thais. You just showed me how egoist you are; you’re bias and take side by Thailand because the first Thai’s Queen was a Chinese Teochow descendant just like you are a Chinese Teochow.

    Most of the govt in the world is corrupted just like Hun Sen, you have to pay the govt under the table in order to open a business. Thailand is one among them; the Thai military junta under the Thai King patronage took over the country in September 2006. Thailand now is facing many problems with the junta govt, with their own people in Pattini and people are mocking the Thai King around the world on internet everyday.

    Cambodia never gets any benefit from Thailand and Vietnam. Cambodia is losing from Thailand and Vietnam. Vietnam and Thailand take their own people to work for them in Cambodia; they never hire any Khmer to work for them.

    Yes, China is a biggest investor in Cambodia; follow by Korea and sooner by Japan. The
    Chinese language is written on the signs of hotels, banks and business in Cambodia just like in San Francisco and the rest of China town in the world.

    You got it wrong about the Jan. riots, Thais did not say they created Angkor Wat, but the Thai actress did claim that Angkor Wat belongs to Thailand. I was glad that Khmers burned the Thai embassy in Phnom-Penh, because Thais also protested and burned the Khmer flags in Bangkok. I don’t care the Khmer govt paid the damage to Thailand, because Khmers never get those money anyway, at least Khmers can smack the Thai faces and make the world to understand that Angkor Wat belongs to Cambodia. Since then, Khmer tourism is getting stronger, never fall. Even the international community got a smile on their face because what Khmer did was right.
    Cambodian tourism is growing fast and stronger, Cambodian economy is growing slow, but steady. The poverty in Cambodia is just like the poverty in the rest of the world, at least Khmers are happy for what they have and who they are. Khmers don’t steal anyone property and claim as their own like Thais did. Khmers continue to spread their culture as those Khmers who live around the globe.

    Vietnam might have control over Hun Sen, but Vietnam can’t do anything as they want. Vietnam can’t have control over China, USA and the International Community who are watching Khmers everyday.

    I’m glad that you can’t make your business in Cambodia, because Cambodia surely doesn’t need an egoist business man like you who think only big money and don’t care about Khmer culture.

    You got it wrong by comparing Khmers and Thais to Chinese and Japanese. Japanese left China and took the Chinese culture with them, they were part of Chinese.
    Thais were Tai from China and they were welcome to Khmer land by Khmers, in return Thais kicked Khmer out and stole Khmer land and culture and claimed as their own.

    No one can stop Khmer to spread Khmer culture around the world. The world will see the difference between the fake and real very soon. Thais will be hurtful and shameful just like they did to Khmer Preah Vihear temple 40 years ago.

  70. To the person who was looking for Eh Phothongs address, just go to phnom penh and ask for Eh Phothongs Tonle Bassac gym…it is on the other side of the royal palace…he lives in the slum area of that village. Its sad really to see a champion live in such condition but the country is so corrupted that it cant be helped. I just came back from my visit from cambodia and had the chance to go see him. I also talked to many of the kickboxers there and Thais and Khmers fight often near the province of Battambong, There are wins and lost on both sides so pretty evenly matched. One thing i found rather interesting is that Thais tried to censor all the stone carvings found on Angkor watt and all the other temples. They wouldnt allow the use of ‘kun khmer boran’…Why would they go through that trouble? Makes yu wonder doesnt it. I guess if yur not khmer or thai, yu dont know wat goes on behind closed doors. Im khmer but i agree with the others, that we Khmers complain and dwell in the past too much…Thais were the ones who made the art famous so they deserve it, we should worry about setting our country straight, not just getting credit for martial arts. I hope i dont get attacked on both sides,lets just have a peaceful debate

  71. KHMER PATRIOT on

    I AM SURPRISE AND SO GLAD THAT I FIRST THOUGH I WAS ALONE ARGUING THIS MATTER WITH THE THAI. I AM PROUDLY TO BE KHMER AND IM SO HAPPY THAT ALL THE KHMER BROS HAVE STEP UP AND TALK AND EXPAND THIS MATTER TO THE WORLD TO EXPLAIN TO THE WORLD THE TRUTH.
    I WANT ALL KHMER BROTHER TO KNOW, YOU ARE NOT ALONE . US KHMER GOT PRIDE. KEEP IT UP BROS.

    I LEARN SO MUCH FROM HERE, HISTORY, PASSION,LOVE, AND HATRED.

    IM SO PROUD WITH EVERYBODY. WE ARE IN THIS TOGATHER MY PEOPLE. AND ONE DAY THE TRUTH WILL SHOWS IT FACE, THAN LIE WILL HIDE IN SHAME.

    MARK MY WORD, KHMER WILL ALWAYS BE KHMER, IF U GONNA KILL US, MAKE SURE U KILL US ALL OR THERE WILL STILL BE KHMER TO KILL U BACK.

    HOPE ALL THE BROTHER AND SISTER HAVE NEVER KNEW KHMER HISTORY, LEARNED THIS IMPORTENT IMFORMATION OF OUR HOMELAND HISTORY.

    KHMER BROTHERS, DONT BOTHER TO ARGUE WITH THE INGORENCE,

    THERE A KHMER SAYING,

    IF U ARE DUM AND KNOWS YOU ARE DUM THAT MEAN YOU ARE SMARTH.
    IF U R DUM AND DONT KNOW THAT U ARE DUM, THAN U ARE DUM.

    I AM JUST TRYING TO TRANSLATE THIS WORD DIRECT FROM KHMER PROVERB.

    AND BEST WORD I CAN PUT IT IS,

    IF A DOCTOR DOESNT KNOW HE SICK THAN HE NOT A DOCTOR.

    MY POINT IS DONT BOTHER TO ARGUE WITH TO ONE I REFER, DONT WASTE YOUR TIME ARGUING WITH THEM. BECAUSE U ARE TALKING TO THE DUM ONE.

    I LOVE MY PEOPLE TO DEATH, I HAVE A DREAM THAT ONE DAY I CAN GO BACK TO CAMBODIA AND MAKE A CHANGE, AND I SHARE THIS SAME DREAM WITH MILLIONS OTHER KHMERS.

    MAY OUR DREAMS COME TRUE.

    I CANT EXPRESS MY FEELING ABOUT KHMER PEOPLE ENOUGH IN WORD. BUT I HOPE ALL BROTHER AND SISTERS KNOWS IT BY HEART.

    LOVE, PEACE, AND RESPECT TO EVERYONE, ESPCIALLY MY PEOPLE, KHMER PEOPLE.

    JAY YO KAMPUCHEA!!!!!!!!!!

    AS ALWAYS,
    STAY SAFE
    -KHMER PATRIOT

  72. Boy I can’t win. The Thai calls me pro Thai and the Khmer calls me pro Khmer. I can’t win.

    6 millions Jews were killed by the Nazis, 20 million Russians killed by the Nazis and Stalin, 30 million Chinese were killed by Mao and the Japanese, Africa has been destroyed by Colonialization and the malaria that comes with it, The aboriginies of Australia are all whiped out.

    My point is Khmers are not the only people who have struggled recently. People may not relate exactly but they can relate relatively.

    Khmer Angkor,

    I am trying to make peace here and I been called pro Thai by a Khmer and Pro Khmer by a Thai.

  73. BTW Rumtum,

    If you think the Chinese/Japanese and Thai/khmer comparison is a bad one I suggest you read up on Chinese/Japanese past and current relations. East Asia’s future (including Cambodia’s) will depend on this relationship. USA will be a minor player in East Asia in 40 years.

    I tried to start a business in Cambodia and was basically told to payup to Hun Sen not to the Cambodian people. “Greedy” people like me drive economic development. It’s call capitalism and the Invisible hand.

  74. drop it like it's hot on

    i make my point again kote low loi, all human beings fite da same. we all have da same fiting instincts. we punch, kik, knee, elbow, & wrestle. but it’s da culture, custom & tradition, dat make a martial art unique 2 a country or people. can’t u read kote low loi.

    muay thai have nuzzing 2 do wif original thai culture, im talking about da thai culture they had in southern china before they were influence by da khmer culture. all of muay thai custom & tradition is khmer & not original thai. & u still want 2 believe dat prada saray khmer have nuzzing 2 do wif muay thai. dnt make me laugh kote low loi. u jus being a fooooool.

    most top fiters in thailand are of khmer ancestry, like bukauw & jomhod. u mite say khmer fiters are da back bone of thai boxing. so if u rip out dat back bone wat u got left? all u got left is a paralise body. all u got left is ethnic thai fiters. with out da ethnic khmer fiters, thai boxing wont be as strong as it is. thai boxing wif out ethnic khmer fiters, is like mcdonalds wif out hamburgers.

  75. All you know is what you read in a book. So how can that be conclusive evidence. Your regurgitating 2nd and 3rd hand and sometimes 4th hand perspectives. You were not there to see any of the things you claim happen so how can you conclude Thailand’s history so smugly? For all you know Thai influenced cambo.

  76. I don’t eat mcdonalds anyhow, like I said before you can make all the claims you want. You think they’re mixed with cambo, THINK!!!!!! So if khmer is so great where the fuck are the khmer champions from cambo??? And if they were, they are some of the top thai fighters. Khmers the back bone of muay thai?? AAAAAHAHAHAHAHA. So why can’ khmers be the back bone of khmer boran??? WHy don’t they goto cambo and fight??? They are thai citizen, KHUN THAI, didn’t originally everybody migrate from africa??? So really they are african huh according to your logic??? Shut the fuck up or make something of yourselves..Jealousy is such an ugly thing.

  77. Kote Law Loi

    its plain and simple, i agree with you Jealousy is such an ugly thing so is GREED…Some people would turn in their own family in a heart beat for $$$ and thats what some of the fighters did. If you were to ask some of yur Thai fighters on the downlow, of course they will say they are Khmer Surin, but in the Media they will represent thailand cuz its all about the money. At least Cambodia has some diginity to refuse to be in the Muay Thai association during the ASEAN meeting. Its about pride, honor and heritage, and i guess thats something you will never understand.

  78. khmer angkor

    “At least Cambodia has some diginity to refuse to be in the Muay Thai association during the ASEAN meeting. Its about pride, honor and heritage, and i guess thats something you will never understand.”

    This is why I respect the Khmer fighters. Somethings should be for sale others are not.

    Kote Law Loi,

    Did you just attack Books? Dam those books for reviewing the truth.

    As far as the we are from Africa thing..educated people call that a non-sequitur. Ultimately we all come from fused hydrogen atoms from the Sun.

    Culture defines people not place of birth nor genetics. This whole genetics and place of birth as defining ethnicity was invented by the White man to spread racist propaganda. So if Buakaw follows much of Khmer Culture, he is still Khmer. National citizenry means nothing. If it did then we should just call the Thais in China Chinese.

    I suggest you pick up a book a read about Thai history–pre and post Angkorian. You have managed not one once of proof for Muay Thai being invented by the Thais. On the way you have insulted the Khmers (who may have well been your ancestors and the most influential culture on modern Thailand), you have insulted the Chinese (the second most influential culture on Thailand and the very people who your Royal Family is descent from. FYI, Taksin the Great was the great Thai hero who drove out the Burmese without him there would be no Thailand. Guess what he was half Chinese on the father side.), You have insulted the Thai Royal Family through insulting their direct family line. You have insulted Taksin the Great, one of Thailands greatest heroes. And by not acknowledging that Thais are descendants of the Tai people of China, you are insulting your own ancestors. Good job.

    You best reply was what do those books know. Grow up.

  79. To Minh:

    You pro both Khmer and Thai, but you’re bias egoist and take side by Thailand, because you’re Chinese Teochow like the first Queen of Thailand a Chinese Teochow descendant. And the reason why you wanted Khmers to give credit to Thais despite the fact that you knew Muay Thai is originated from Khmers.

    To compare the KR to the Nazi and the Japanese is wrong. The KR doesn’t go invading other country and kill other nation like the Nazi and the Japs did. It just happened that Khmers killed Khmers, because the US was the one who created the cause. Khmers are struggled to survive again and all Khmer want is to have Khmer culture back. Doest it cost too much for Thais just to admit that Muay Thai is originated from Khmer Pradal Serei?

    The Japanese hate the Chinese and the Chinese hate the Japanese, but if you ask all the Japanese, they’ll be proud telling you that their language Hiragana and Katakana is a descendant from Chinese Kanji.

    Unlike Thais, if you ask all Thais, they never ever admit something like the Japanese admit to the Chinese. Thais will tell you, Thai language is directly from Tai, Bali or Sanskrit despite the fact that Thai numerals are Khmer numerals 100%.

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v161/simoneek/sim/?action=view&current=num-khmer.jpg

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v161/simoneek/sim/?action=view&current=num-thai.jpg

  80. Anyways,

    I think I have said enough.

    So if anyone has heard of a Pradal Serey Gym in San Francisco on 5th and Harrison let me know.

  81. their is a school in san fran that i can remember it cal PRACH something like that. run by khmer.

    stockton is two hours away from san fran. that not much to go learn KUN KHMER BORAN and this is not prodel serey.

    u cant just go walk in walk out. it up to them to except you. as far as i know KKB is still a secrect art. no body scene what it look like, and no more know that it can do. so i rather go fly to cambo and learn bokator,

    it take u 2 hours to get to stockton, i think it worth it for a history to learn something new… whatver u one.

    this is the website

    http://www.angkorianwarriors.com/

    KUN KHMER BORAN

    if ya want to know go there and read and contact them.

  82. Frank,

    Thanks,

    I’ll ask around. The thing with living in the City is that I don’t have a car. Many of us who live in SF don’t have a car so Stockton is not really an option. I will however be in Cambodia next year for a month or two and will try to hook up with a guy name Mr. Kimseam. I’ll check out stockton if I can convince my fr iend with the car to go. Again thanks.

  83. DAM ,,, U DONT HAVE A DAM AND U ARE A HISTORIAN WAT U DO FOR LIVING JUST CURIOUS BUT ANYWAY IF U DONT NEED A CAR TO WORK UR JOB MUST BE CLOSE OR U USE THE PUBLIC TRANPORTATION ALL THE TIME.

    MR. KIMSEAM U DONT NEED TO TRY TO HOOK UP,

    KHMER TRAINER ALWAYS WELCOME YOU, ESCPICIALLY IT ALREADY WELL KNOW.

    ON THE OTHER HAND KKB IT NOT WELL KNOWN.
    THIS ART IS BEEN A SECRECT FOR THOUSAND OF YEARS, THAT WHY NO ONE KNOW ABOUT IT. THE WORLD JUST KNOW BOKATOR LAST COUPLE YEAR. AND KKB IS ONE OF THEM. IT DECIDE TO SHOW THE FACE. BUT NOT THE RIGHT SPONSER AND IT NEED FIANANCIAL BACK UP. WELL ALOT OF STUFF NEED TO BE DOEN. HOWEVER KHMER PEOPLE IS STARTING TO KNOW THIS ART.

    I CANT SAY TO MANY THING, BUT IF U WANT TO KNOW THE HISTORY OF THIS ART, WHICH THAN LEAD TO THE HISTORY OF KHMER KING, AND ANCIENT STORIES THAT BEEN PAST DOWN.
    CONTACT THEM.

    PRACH GYM IN SF IS JUST A PRADEY SEREY NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT IT. PRADEY SEREY IS THE SAME AS MUAY THAI. AND IN SF THEYA RE NOT ALLOW TO USE ELBOWS. MAN THAT SUCK. I HAVENT SEEN ANYBODY DIED BECUAE OF ELBOW YET AND KHMER LEGAL IT AND I HAVEN SEEN ANYBODY DIED DURING LIVE TELEVISION. SO IT NOT THAT BAD, I GUESS IT JUST AMERICAN THING, WELL THEY GOTTA BE MORE LIKE UFC SO WE CAN USE WAT WE WANT.

    ANYWAY IM JUST COMPLAINING, BUT IM SURE EVERYBODY ALREADY KNOW THAT.

  84. Minh you smelly little fart in a bag. I was simply saying you do not know for a fact the things you speak of, you merely regurgitate what you read and what people with bias and/or bias opinions have taught you. The fact is all S.E.A. has they’re own version of kickboxing. And you don’t need to put me on to what a non-sequitur is or talk to me like i’m ignorant. Were you there when these dynasties were in place and/or ruling??? I thought not, so don’t talk about a past in which you were not existent for you do not have first hand knowledge of these events rather, you have knowledge that has been filtered and edited. KOCHAI MAI I KWAI???

  85. I learned Kickboxing from a Thai national of Laos descent. It is really fun. But since I learned about that it is really Pradal Serey, I will be in Cambodia studying Pradal Serey and Bokator. Pradal Serey because its fun. Bokator for self defense, that is why I want to visit Eh Phoutong. He kicks like a mull.

    Kote Law Loi,

    You are funny as hell. How can I argue with you since I was not alive when during the Angkorian Empire. But I have visited Yunan, Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam and seen the old relics. I guess that is more than what you have done.

    BTW,

    The reason why all SEA has Kickboxing because most of SEA use to be ruled by the Khmers. Duh Duh Duh. Thais have never ever controlled all of SEA. I don’t they would have taught their art to their enemies. But the Khmers would have taught it to their descendents. This is call deductive reasoning.

  86. You seen relics??? (Thunderous Applause!!!)(Cheering!!!) I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard the phrase, “It’s not where your from, it’s where your at”…Where the fuck are you?? Where are khmer? Now ask yourself where is Thai??? At the top of the mutherfuckin food chain as far as SEA is concerned!!! Ugggggghhhhhhhh! Economy, Culture, etc. Oh this is khmer blah blah blah. Thailand all day little minh. Jealousy is so ugly!

    The fact is you can argue all you want about what used to be nong minh, But all that matters now is….NOW!!!! duh duh duh hahahaha. And beside that is what I’m talking about. You CAN’T say CONCLUSIVELY that khmer ruled SEA because you did not witness that, that is what is known as HERE SAY, Hea meunga!!! CANN NEE!!! Except!
    Here say is second hand knowledge!!! How many hands has your knowledge passed through Minh??? My fault about the smelly little fart comment, that was kinda juvenile.

  87. Oh one more thing, that is asshole logic not deductive reasoning. For that to be deductive reasoning nong minh, the statment about either Thais never ruling SEA and/or khmers ruling SEA would have to be accepted as true!!! Neither seem to be proven evident nong kwai oops! I mean nong minh. SO AGAIN, THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL ASSHOLE LOGIC. And people who often say things like “That’s what you call…” are CONDESCENDING ASS|HOLES!!! I rest my case Kowai! Ina Sunnthiene!

  88. I feel like a fucking playground monitor. My blog isn’t Sherdog. If you can’t have a constructive dialogue with out being asshole, then don’t comment.

  89. khmer from essan on

    kote law loi, u like a little kid hu jus found out dat sanat clause does’nt exist, lol hahaha.he like alot of thai i met dat are ignorant of real history & facts, it’s always like dat wen it cums 2 khmer-thai issues. da siam are very stubborn about it.

    im an ethnic khmer from surin city in da essan provinces of thailand. my family been involved in “muaythai” (yer wat ever). prada saray for hundres of years long before da thai or siam even ruled thailand. da sport was pass down from 1 khmer generation 2 da nex.

    according 2 khmer essan tradition, pradal saray was da most popular sport in da ancient khmer empire. wen da thai came down 2 settle in thailand from china, they live under khmer rule & adopted khmer culture, custom, & traditions. they also got in 2 da khmer fiting sport of pradal saray as well, because it was a major spectator sport in da khmer empire. jus like da gladiator fites of roman times.

    but know the thai claim pradal saray as their own, & call it muay thai. they deny any link 2 da original pradal saray, dats wat i call cultural theft. i grew up in thailand, & i can tell u personally dat my people da ethnic essan khmer is da bak bone of thai boxing in thailand. we better at it dan da thai, coz we been doing it 4 longer & da fiting tradition is strong 4 us essan khmer. essan is a poor area of thailand & fiting is a way 2 make a living.

    da bread & butter of thai boxing in thailand is in essan. ethnic essan khmer run da best training gyms & produce da best fiters. i got heaps of family members dat fite as well. us khmer have 2 use made up thai name as our fitng name haha. we can’t make anyzing be too khmer haha. it get da thai all worked up. jus check out kote law loi, haha. it’s all politics, now there is da muay thai-pradal saray argument, it wud’nt look good 4 muay thai f there top fiters were ethnic khmer.

    but we don’t mind, as long as we get 2 fite, make money 2 look after our family. we can live under “muay thai” hehe. but we still remeber dat it’s pradal saray & will pass dat tradition down 2 da nex genereation, jus like it’s been dun before there was thailand or even muay thai.

    bak before da cambo civil war my family use 2 go & fite in cambodia all da time & we accomodated fiters from cambodia as well. bak den there was no w.m.c, gyms & promoters wud organise fites & fiters from thailand & cambo fought each other freely. but now w.m.c monopolize da fite game in south east asia, & control fites between khmer & thai fiters. money is power.

    i met & train wif bukauw at por promuk gym last time i was in thailand, man dat guy is a dedicated & discipline fiter, i suppose dat why he a champion. me & him had a chat ( we talked in our native northern khmer dialect, not thai) & yes he is khmer hehe. he can’t even speak thai dat good.

    i can understand his position. if i was a top fiter representing thailand it jus make senes 2 say dat ur thai, da thai wud get piss of if u publicly say dat u are ethnic khmer, den dat way da pradal saray people can add more arsenal 2 their daebate . saying ur ethnic khmer wud end ur career in muay thai & even put ur life & ur family life at risk. i shud know i lived in thailand.

    me personaly if i was a top essan khmer fiter i wud’nt mind representing thailand, coz my family from there my ancestors. i was born & raise there, i make a living fiting in thailand. got a thai passport. & da money is good. jus like if i grew up in america i fite 4 america.

    but in saying dat i will always remember da true history of “muay thai”. i will always remember dat my khmer ancestors invented da sport fitng of pradal saray-muay thai. i will also make sure dat essan khmer will always remeber dat as well.

    i hope i clear things up a bit. get da truth & nuzzing but da truth. there is more dan 1 side 2 da south east asian kck boxing story. u gotta read all da pages of da south east asian kickboxing book. dnt jus read da pages da sum one tell u 2.

    ah kun kup

  90. nopstar ,

    I apologize if I am in anyways turning you site into Sherdog. If you look at what I have read, I think I have been fairly cordial. I have been attack by both Rhumtum and Kote. I have tried to keep the conversation on historical proofs based on my experience and studies. I will stop if you like (just say the word) since this is your site and I thank your for allowing this debate to go on. Again, I emphasize that I have no horse in this race. I like visiting both Thailand and Cambodia because these two places have preserve their culture better than any other Asian countries from globalization.

    khmer from essan,

    You made my point well. This is what I meant by Thailand being a kingdom and not really an ethnic group. This is what I meant by saying Muay Thai Being invented in Thailand may not be wrong because so Many citizen of Thailand are of Khmer descent. But to say it was invented by the Tai people of Southern China seems wrong. If a Thailand national such as yourself say Muay Thai was invented by in Thailand, then I will have to agree with you. But of course you would never say such things because you know better. I am neither Tai nor Khmer so who ever invented th art doesn’t matter much to me. But as a historian, I do care deeply for the true. My expertise in Chinese history (much of it involving the Nanchao and Dali empire), took me to Yunan to learn about the may different peoples of this region once independent from China. There I met Tai speaking people, Tibeto-Burmese speaking people, and Laotian people. They tell me about their history. From there I went to Vietnam, Cambodia, and Thailand. All the evidence showed me that Muay Thai was indeed a Khmer invention. As I have suggested, to find out about the martial arts of an east asian culture, follow the temples and the ethnic group that purportedly invented th art. Then you will find the truth. If I am wrong, then I am wrong, but evidence must be shown first for me to accept it. Before going to Asia, I thought, like most people that Muay Thai was invented by Tais. The evidence shows different and I have to accept the evidence.

    Kote Law Loi,

    According to your logic, then we know nothing of the past. How do we know that slavery existed in America? How do we know that it was race based? How do we know that it was terrible? How do we know that Jazz music and eventually rock n roll came from Africa (Ghana) to the Slave states to the rest of America? How do we know Elvis did not invent it? After all, rock music musics two biggest Act ever: Elvis and the Beatles, were White. Did White people then invent rock and jazz? Rock n Roll is all over the world now, was it independently invented by every society? Every slave from that period is dead. No one alive has seen the original African beats. Are Blacks jealous of Whites that is why they claim Rock n Roll and Jazz to be their invention? We know history only through books, art, oral history, language, cultural practices, and surviving architects. All these evidence point to Khmer origin of Muay Thai. If first hand account is all you need for evidence then we as a civilization know nothing about history. Every University should close down and we live only in the here and now. At the end you have shown no evidence that Muay Thai is a Tai invention. You started by saying that it was then you are saying that every society in SEA invented it. Therefore, shouldn’t the WMC change its name to the SEA kickboxing Council at th very least?

    Kote Law Loi,

    Do yourself a favor and Visit Yunan province in China. It is a 2 hour flight from Chiangmai. You seem to have issues with your Khmer cultural heritage (all people of Thailand in one way or another is influenced by Khmer Culture). In Yunan you can look for the Tai peoples and see what “real” Tai culture was before the Khmer influence. Too bad it won’t be authentic because even though Khmer culture has not influenced the Tais of China too much, Chinese culture has. But either way you will see what Tai people would be like, what their martial arts is like if it weren’t for the Khmers.

  91. Acorrding to tradition??? Whose tradition??? You like a little kid who can’t read. I’m sick on this topic. You keep talking but I see empty words. SO the last thing I will say is I do not agree with you, that is evident, and I do disagree with you, which, is also evident. SO! Instead of wasting my time and yours, let us agree to disagree. personally i find all the excuses and stuff kinda lame and easy to repeat. But I posted what i felt I should and I agree that we have different opinions. We are obviously not going to change each others mind. But it was fun arguing with you guys, I’ll give you that. salaam!

  92. Sovanna/Suwanna on

    Oohhooo! Thank you guys!!

    That is so much entertainment. I love it.

    Kote and Rumdol is so entertaining, and Kote tried to prove his points by screaming “Khao-Jai Mai, EE KWAI” which is a translation of something like “Do you understand, idiot”

    Ahhahaa @ Mai’s comment about feeling like a fucking playground monitor.

    This is an awesome thread.

  93. Hey Minh, are yu wondering how or why Khmers taught Thai the art back in the days, during the war time, many Thais or Siams as they were called were captured prisoners and put to work to build Angkor Watt and during that time Khmers religion were ‘Pream’ ( i dont know what it is called in English language) so they were very fierce and cruel. During this time, Khmer would teach the prisoners how to fight so when there is war time, they can be able to fight and help the Khmers against their enemies, notice how ‘muay boran’ only has 6 steps and Khmer Boran has 12..=]… after King Jayavaraman the 7th’s reign was over, the Khmer Empire switched to the Buddhism religion and become soft and that was the beginning of the decline of the Khmer Empire

    Minh you have a great arguement and i enjoy reading your posts. if you have any questions let me know, if i can answer ill be glad too…did yu get the directions to Eh Pho Thongs house?

  94. i think this is a very importent pieces of information of khmer history…. gotta love this debate

    i learn so much

  95. I don’t mean to start this up again, but I missed something you posted mihn. That’s correct!!! Just like you only know what going on in your part of the world]. The news filters and edits what they broadcast. Who writes down history?? not you! So when you present all these facts and stories etc. you are repeating something that was told to you, not something you saw for your own eyes. And that is true that I do not know for a fact slavery went on because I was not there to witness it myself. I believe it could have went on but I do not know for sure because I did not witness that. So really you know “of” history. You have an idea of what was described or explained to you. As a matter of fact as far as I’m concerned the past(and future) is actually non existent. What exists is now the present. Any number of things could have been done to fabricate/corrupt/taint/destroy/rewrite history or accounts of the past. And if we should go so far as to rename WMC(World Muay Thai Council) to SEA boxing,why not just combine every wordly fighting style??? (MMA) Because Muay thai is thailand’s M.A. Whether or not it was influenced or influenced others does not matter, for that is the past and does not exist but only as a memory which has dead with the witness and was recorded as an opinions for there is no way to authenticate it’s truth. kocahi mai..KRUP???

    Because fighting is human nature, it’s not impossible that one person out of many in the past has used they’re elbows and knees etc to defend themselves, wouldn’t you agree? So it’s Called WMC because it pertains to thai rules and regulations, I do think they have SEA boxing already (K-1) even though it’s not named that.

    It’s the same concept as science vs religion or nature vs nurture. How was the universe created??? You will get trillions of answers but not even one of them will be correct, because all of those answers are thought to be correct by the person who gave it but not one of them speak out of knowledge, but out of opinion. Because as I said be fore no one was alive to witness the birth of the universe and if there were in fact there would be no more. Just like those who witnessed that ancient history in which you speak of are no more so for you to present any kind of evidence is your interpretation of what those relics are or what you have learned. Not, what you know to be the absolute, bare, naked, untarnished truth.

    Now I can say i’m done speaking on this topic…for now.

  96. At the end of the day we can just say Muay Thai is a Khmer art that the Thais made popular.

  97. Kote Law Loi

    u said how we know slavery really happen ???? we werent there. ? and u dont believe anything that happen in the pass and the future,
    but what matter to you most is present time.

    now let me ask u this, i dont want to be rude but

    my question is,

    this is in the past, how do we know ur dad bang ur mom and have you???? i know that u weren there, but u born,

    according to you, u know know ur dad bang ur mom for real, or some body else,

    but the fact is that u were born… how do u explain that u are born? and live until the present day,

    how do u know ur mother is ur mother, how do u know everybody u know is real, ? ur grandma was the past, everything could of been a lie, but why do u believe they are ur real parent real family??

    dont tell me ur just born out of know where?

    if u deny history than u are deny ur present family.

    u are living in denied. if u can explain how u are born and what it take to make u ?

    and my assumption about ur dad bang ur mom and create u was wrong, than i will not believe anything in the history everything in the past.

    if u can explain that please do… im willing to listen….

    do what u gotta do to explain….

  98. i understand that history can be a change in a little detail. however the stories there….

    what u r saying is that,

    right we the U.S which is the present day im talking about we invade iraq and in the future it gonna be iraq invading the U.S how do the future know the history or the present now. because we are the people who are writing it, everything is being recored so the future generation wil know what happen here and now in the present day…

    years from now u have a kid or do u already and than u died, how do ur kid know or grand child know that u are the grandpa

    it because ur kid is the historian of u,
    ur kid is the one is telling what u look like to ur grand children.

    that how the future children know about u which is thier past.

    history is the same thing as ur life stories… if the future dont know the past than we dont have present,
    which mean u dont exist…

  99. khmer from essan on

    dam yo, if u guys want evidence dat muay thai is a thai version of prada saray khmer, den jus ask me. my ancestoral land is da essan provinces of thailand, or in ancient khmer empire it was known as da northern kingdom.

    essan is da heart & soul of “muay thai”. my ancestors were there wen da thai 1st learnt pradal saray & took part in da sport fiting. but now us khmer dnt get even a mention in da history of “muay thai”. secretly us essan khmer support pradal saray claim dat it pre-dated “muay thai” because we know it, we are da evidence. but we can’t publicly say it in thailand or our body will be floating in da mekong river. haha.

    being an ethnic khmer in thailand, & seeing da thai promote my ancestors fiting sport of pradal saray as theirs & only theirs sux. dam rite us khmer gonna course a stir, as long as thailand refuse 2 except da link between “muay thai” & pradal saray.

    jus remember muay thai before da thai came 2 thailand was khown as pradal saray. if u like muay thai den u shud know da hole history of “muay thai” & not jus da thai chapter, coz before da thai chapter there was pradal saray khmer chapter, it’s like a book. u will enjoy it more if u read evry chapter.

    ah kun kup.

  100. As a general rule, Cambodian are never afraid to admit that our culture and our art may have been influenced by other countries, i.e, India. But Thai like to add the word Thai in front of everything whether it was originated somewhere else or there… I recently saw a bag of chip that is called Thai chip…. hmmm, interesting. Considering Cambodia was practicing Pradal Serei before Thailand even exists as a country, it wouldn’t be too hard to wonder where it comes from… but it’s okay all, it’s commercialism versus soul. If you give credit to where it comes from, you retain the soul. If all you want to do is add your name on it, all it you have is commercialism and the surface of where you really comes from… nowhere, out of thin air…No history.

  101. khmer from essan on

    i dnt want 2 sound like i hate muay thai, coz if u hate muya thai den u dnt like pradal saray. it’s da layers of crap dat thailand have put on 2 cover da true history of muay thai dat people shud know about.

    i no dat there are people out there, dnt care if it thai or khmer they jus like da sport & dats all good, but it’s also good 2 know da history & culture behind da sport they like. & at da moment a distorted version is being told by da muay thai official. i shud know im from thailand. jus because da thai say muay thai is theirs & dismiss any link 2 prada saray dat dnt mean it true.

    go 2 da essan provinces & talk 2 da indigenouse khmer people hu live in thailand long before da thai & ask us about da history of muay thai, & we’ll tell u it jus da thai version of da ancient khmer fiting sport of pradal saray.

    it’s jus good 2 let kickboxing fans know da real history of muay thai, people mite not care, but atleast da facts are out there.

  102. i think those thai people have enough of us khmer . we have present the fact, all they have to go just check if it true or false…

  103. I think Minh 2007 has made all the valid points that needed to be made. I’m sure everyone wanted to say the things he stated in one way or another but he was very successful in doing so. RumTum don’t bother arguing over semantics man, it’s pointless. Minh never said anything negative about Khmer culture, what he stated is what was plausible and due to his education. A Damn good education I might add.

    To the Troll who is in complete denial about the world, his culture and the reality of it all. get over it, it’s the truth. Use some reasoning, it’s not a coincidence that Pradal Serey and Muay are similar, it’s most likely what Minh said. If you guys created, why would you need to keep looting Angkor for our artists, apsaras, scholars and scientists?

    Props to all the Khmer people that don’t attack others irrationally or even attack others at all.

    And to the originator of this site, I think what the Kid meant when he said he didn’t like Muay Thai is that we don’t like people taking credit for something that belongs to them. We hate the name Muay Thai! to us it’s just Pradal (Boxing) Serey(Free). We don’t call it Pradal Khmer because there was no need for it before, everyone knew where it came from! Kun Khmer or Khmer Technique is a term we like to use because we already know it’s a fighting technique. In any case, I’m glad you did your history research and found out about the truth. The truth cannot be hidden forever, and us Khmer people speaking out about the theft of our culture is just the beginning.

    Thanks for this blog.

  104. Btw I forgot to mention, if Thais created all the things the claim to have created, why do they use Khmer words in levels of their govt, and as well as in the martial arts?

  105. Minh missed the whole point of my comments. No, I’m not attacking Minh or anyone here; I’m trying to explain everyone what I think.
    And no don’t compare me to Kote Law Loi, because I haven’t run out of the English words like Kote Law Loi yet.

    I don’t care if Thailand would have created their Muay Thai without using any Khmer properties in there. But I do care when Thailand has created their Muay Thai by using 100% of Khmer properties such as Khmer tattoos, Khmer tradition Yan (Yantra), Khmer sacred language, Khmer Kun Kru dance and Khmer Yol music to play during the matches and called them all to Muay Thai???

    Thais can choose 2 things;

    1) admit that Muay Thai is originated from Khmers by using Khmer properties in Muay Thai.

    2) to be called “Thief” from stealing Khmer properties to use in their Muay Thai.

  106. “Thais can choose 2 things;

    1) admit that Muay Thai is originated from Khmers by using Khmer properties in Muay Thai.

    2) to be called “Thief” from stealing Khmer properties to use in their Muay Thai.

    I totlally agree with you. This is what I been saying all along but I added that the Khmers should also admit that the Thais did a good job in marketing SEA boxing. Hey I am only trying to make peace and show the truth:

    Khmers invented the art and the Thais made it famous. Just like the Japanese did with Chinese calligraphy.

  107. khmer angkor,

    I think we are of the same mind. I won’t be in Cambodia until next year, but if you can post Eh Phoutong’s address up that would be of great help to me. I have relatives in Cambodia. I am sure I can find him, but any help is appropriated.

  108. Mr.Secret!!! bAI DEE MAI? Now, to address your reply. I find it border line disrespectful you used the word “BANG” in the context of fornication with my mother, but I thought, Ok? he didn’t mean it like that until you insinuated that my mom was “Banged” by my dad or “SOMEBODY”. Just to inform you, if you made that insinuation to my face I would in fact smack the dog shit out of you. But face to face we are not. So that’s that. Back to your retort. I in fact, let me repeat that. I in FACT! do not know if my mother is my mother, or my father and so forth. But I do have memories good and bad of them which I “Believe” are organically mine.

    Now I could be wrong, this is why I use the qualifier “Believe”. As far as my mother birthing me, I “Believe” her when she tells me she did because I have witnessed her kindness/nurturing(evidence I witnessed first hand to come to an educated theory, not conclusion) to myself first hand and not the exact same qualities but along those lines from my father. As far as my dad “Banging” my mom as Mr.Secret(mr.ididn’tpostanemailaddresorwebsiteitoremainannonyomous) so (in)eloquently put it, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not.

    You see, ego,pride and fear can be dangerous things. It can cause someone to present something as fact when in actuality it’s unbeknown to said person that this is opinion(false/untrue/fabricated or said individual was mislead or confused). As much as I love, honor, respect and am loyal to my mother and father, I, in all honesty, don’t even know if they are really my parents.

    But the kindness they showed me and love they bestowed upon me makes me want to love them, which, in many ways, could be looked at like a metaphor of you khmer guys and your need to be loyal and prove that your right, aswell as I have my loyalties. But that’s neither here nor there. In reality, you couldn’t tell me you know your mother is your mother or your father because while you were there, you were not conscience of your existence, much less conscious enough to experience your own birth with your own eyes.

    For all I know(you too) I was born in a field of babies being picked by gigantic robots matrix style. I choose what I believe and as much as I believe that my parents are my biological “peeps” as the kids say(or said), it is not written in stone(IT IS NOT FACT). That answer your question. Maybe it was immaculate conception? Maybe little big bang?

    How do you know how babies are born??? It’s what you see/are told/learn. Do you stay with a couple from fornication/impregnation everday second/minute/day/month until birth/conception??? Of course not!!! Even if you could, you cannot view the inside of said female’s belly to witness the fetus mature into a baby. Correct? HA! So honestly, you don’t even know how babies are conceived!!

    Mr.Navy!!! You are next!!! COOOMMEEE OOONNN DDOOOOOOOOOWWWWWNNNN!!!!

    Now, what about everything that goes on that is not written down in those good ol’american history books??? Just to name a few, CIA training bin laden to be a tactician in, Ronald Reagan funding the contras through illicit drug distribution…..to be continued….

  109. those people who are one way or another just happen to be involved with politics and had shares in Lockheed & Martin and Haliburton(What a coincidence!!!). How do you know there is a war in IRAQ (let me get to the point be fore I get to protesting and shit)??? Are you enlisted?? If so have you a birds eye view of Iraq and able to zoom in and out at will in a matter of mili-seconds?? Better yet!!! How do they recruit soldiers??? PROPAGANDA!!!! Which if you follow the war from news channels is nothing but(Propaganda). The news is purposely edited/cut and pasted/ fabricated to scare you into watching. The truth is if it wasn’t controversial, you wouldn’t watch. I they didn’t advertise suicide bombings shootings hurricanes disasters car jackings. That’s all history is, news from the past. How do you know someone didn’t just burn every piece of past information and rewrite it themselves??? YOU DON”T!!!! and I rest my case.

    And rumtum, I find it funny you claim that Thais stole from khmers but have no conclusive proof!!

    Prove it. You know how to right?? NO??!?!? Really? Ok, I’ll make this simple…Take me back in time….Wait, you can’t??? then I guess you have no absolut evidence huh?? Pretty big assumptions for someone with no proof.

    And the only thai I spoke was to my secret admirer. Are you well and good/very well?

    It’s funny that people are shitting on me and calling me “Fucking Hansom” at the sametime nuh p’Nop??

    Oh KAA TOTE DUAY!!! for starting this topic up again, I take the soul blame for that. I love everybody!!!

    SALAAM!!

  110. khmer from essan on

    kote law loi u a crak up dude, u high on cocaine wen u riting or wat man. u make no sense compared 2 evry 1 else. we hear 2 discuss da connection between muay thai & pradal saray. i dnt like it wen us khmer say thai stole evry zing, i prefer da term influence & adopted dat make more sense. but i suppose wen they make false claims about zings dat are khmer den u can call it theft.

    kote law loi u have said nuzzing dat wud make me zink dat da ethnic thai invented muay thai, nuzzing at all buddy. & i was born & raise in thailand, so i know wat da thai are telling their people & da world. & it definitely a distorted version of history 2 do wif muay thai.

    wen da kickboxing world is more educated, will they care if it thai or khmer, may be, may be not. but hey atleast questions will be ask & i dnt zink thailand can answer it as well as khmer. da essan khmer will be behind our brothers in cambodia, but jus quietly though hehe. we still have 2 live in thailand, & dnt want 2 end up in da mekong river.

  111. Minh,
    Thai did a good job for Thai benefit, not for Khmer benefit. Why do you need to let people know that you’re a Chinese? Because of what, isn’t because you want to be proud of being a Chinese? The Japanese is making the Chinese famous, but the Japanese always admits that their art is a Chinese descendant. You got to understand that Thai never admit that their art is a Khmer descendant, and that’s a difference between Khmer\Thai and Chinese\Japanese.

  112. Kote Law Loi,

    If I were you, I would take my times to read all comments here before asking Rumtum for proof.
    I posted a below url in my previous comment which I found it on Google. You ignored to read it. Thai named this Khmer tattoo to Thai tattoo despite the fact that Khmer sacred language is written on it. As you can see this Thai tattoo is stolen from Khmer’s and that’s enough proof to prove it.
    When you copied something without the owner permission, it’s called “Steal”.
    When you use Khmer properties in Muay Thai without Khmer permission, it’s called “Steal”.

    http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s247/Horitexan/Thai_Temple_Tattoo.jpg

  113. Minh, I told you Eh Pho Thongs house is on the other side of the royal palace, near the administrative building in Phnom Penh, just ask about Eh Phothongs TONLE BASSAC gym, im sure yu will find it…he lives in the ghetto so it might be a little hard to find but just remember TONLE BASSAC gym.

    Khmer Essan, yu done a great job with educated alot of people on this site.

    Kote Law Loi
    Yu say that yu only believe primary sources and not secondary sources but everything yu have learned and read are all secondary sources and you say that the history in history books are censored and contain fabricated information that can be the same with the Thai government/history. To the world they will make up all the stories they want about the history of Muay Thai, but in person to a Cambodian they will gladly say…Muay Thai is Pradal Serey…Before the Cambodian Civil War, Thais use to fight in cambodia and there would be a casket reserved for them at ringside. 9 out of 10 they would lose and thats a fact…where is the proof? All destroyed during the Khmer Rouge era and also most masters fled to Thailand to avoid excution and to seek refuge thats where they made their permanate residence. Thus why muay thai acquired Pradal Serey similairities.

  114. Thank you Bilo2 for your response on my behalf.
    I agreed with Secret, we have enough explained, all they do just do research and will see who’s rigth and who’s wong.

  115. The made up history is made up by Thais. That’s why Thai have to the word Thai infront of everything.

    Without the UN and international community, Khmer refugees woud have been killed all by the Thai soldiers.

    People can go visit Khmer temple in Cambodia and will see the truth of KHMER HISTORY.

  116. Kote Law Loi

    u know i think u are smarth, but a ignorence u just want to piss people off in here that all.

    and im surprise u ask ur self this question,

    am i an ignorence lol ???

    the answer is yes…

    well mr. smarty
    we if face i dont think u get to run ur pretty mouth like on the internet…

    and by reading ur comment u sound like a smarth guy with science stuff in ur head.

    if u dont u know u mathor and father are real,
    go to get them tested dude. they have paternity test now, they test ur genetic ur gene okay . so that way u know that u not an alien.

    my conclusion is that u are an ignorence to the truth…. the proof is the Angkor wat khmer everything there. please dont say that it thai angkor…
    last time they try to do that , we fucking burn everything that associate with thai in cambodia…

    becuasae of people like u , that why khmer have problem with thai, and there alot more people like u out there, a complete ignorence…

    “IF U ARE DUM AND KNOWS YOU ARE DUM THAT MEAN YOU ARE SMARTH.
    IF U R DUM AND DONT KNOW THAT U ARE DUM, THAN U ARE DUM.”
    by khmer patriot

    i think he talking about u…
    such an ignorence like u, there are historian in here, writers, fighter, and people acuually live in thailand agree to all of this. and u just ignor it..

    such an ignorece….

  117. Hey, you’re welcome Rumtum.
    I agreed with you.

    I just heard from the news today saying that Discovery Channel Team is shutting right now a new documentary film about Khmer Pradal Serei in Phnom-Penh and in Siem Reap. I’m sure the Khmer folks will explain them in detail about the Roots of Khmer Martial Arts.

    Keep up the good work!

  118. Test how??? DNA test right??? Dna tests are done by machines. Machines are designed and produced by humans. Machines print the result of the genetic combinations. There is only one way to be absolutely sure of my parents and that is to go back in to time and keep my eyes on them for every second from fornication to birth. And even then like I said before if you can read(mung?? mai dai chai ma? Roo jakk). You cannot witness the embryo to fetus to baby stages with your own eyes.So you cannot be sure how your conception takes place, deductive reasoning huh minh? Admit it or not I’m right.

    And as far as me being dumb? You cut and paste that last paragraph you posted in micro word and see how terrible your spelling and grammar are. You type like a dyslexic retard smoking crack and meth at the same time. wait!! They have spell check in these little boxes that you type your comments into!!! Really?? It’s that hard for you to check your grammar and spelling?? ahahahhahahahaha. I hope you don’t actually talk like you write or your going to have to invest some serious money in language school!! 5555!!

    p.s. your right, I do kinda get off arguing secret ball hugger, but just because I do doesn’t prove khmers invented muay thai. smarth?? dum??? Don’t tell me! Your cambodian??? DOn’t even answer that. Salaam!

    Those writers and fighters and historians and the khun Thai who agree.They don’t “know”. They “Think” or “Believe” but “KNOW”???? They do not. And that’s the truth!

    Where are you from secret stalker? Where are you at?

  119. Kote Law Loi
    Yu say that yu only believe primary sources and not secondary sources but everything yu have learned and read are all secondary sources and you say that the history in history books are censored and contain fabricated information that can be the same with the Thai government/history.

    And why did you not mention the khmer government could possibly fabricate their history??? Somebody is to proud!

    Everything I learned I do not believe to be true!! So regardless, what I have learned has nothing to do with this! Understand? 5555!

  120. Hi All,

    My name is Im Ouk, I am a promoter base in Australia. I promote Kun Khmer and I also work with many Muay Thai gyms. I think us Kun Khmer fans should only worry about promoting our culture and spend more energy helping one another rebuilding this sport. I used to get into heated debates all the time with many ignorance Muay Thai trainers, what I find is that the Thai people are very humble about the origin of the sports, I had even had a Thai master here base in Melbourne, Kru Jeab run a gym call Sityodtong Academy. He has admitted to me in front of his students that Muay Thai came from Cambodia.

    Us Khmer and Thai are basically like brothers our culture and religion are the same. The Thai people have the right to call this sport as Muay Thai and the Khmer people have the rights to call it Bradarl Sarrey or Kun Khmer.

  121. I already said before and I’m saying it again, if Thai just admit that Muay Thai is originated from Khmer, I’ll be proud of Thai people.

    Khmer and Thai can be brother only the two can understand each other.
    If Thai don’t want to understand Khmer, Khmer just let Thai go, but Khmer don’t have to be brother with Thai. Because Khmer knew that Thai lack of honor by stealing Khmer properties and claimed as Thai.
    Khmer knew that Thai took a wrong and dishonest direction, if Khmer don’t correct Thai; Thai will continue to take the wrong direction again and again to the world.
    Recently, Thai stole American drugs and claimed as Thai. The Wall Street Journal reported “Theft in Thailand”. American and European drug companies have to blacklist Thailand for the new drugs.

    If Khmer will have a brother like Thai who don’t understand the properties rights, Khmer too will be lacked of honor and will be blamed by the world.

  122. Rumtum, well spoken brother! in actuality, we all get along, this whole nationalism is what divides us. If the Thai King from the 1920s didn’t get racist with it we wouldn’t be so divided now. Also, the Stupid Ass Hun Sen is trying to create conflict with Thai to increase our dependence on the Yuon, a Yuon Scheme after all for their “Nam Tien”.

    I, and as many other of my Khmer people I’m sure would agree that if the Thai govt let’s go of their racism and chauvinism against Srok Khmer and Khmer people abroad, and admit that they adopted most of their customs from Angkor culture, we would have no problems and work towards better S.E.A. for the future.

  123. Sovanah Phum,

    Your warning about Hun Sen is what I been trying to warn people about. The Thai government is trying to do the same. I try to create peace between people in Thailand and Cambodia because I respect both and do believe the two are both diasporas of the Angkorian Empire. I also believe, like it or not, Cambodia’s future economic growth will heavily depend on Thailand.

    The Thai King in the 1920s made all Chinese in Thailand Change their name to Thai and force many out of the country. So the Khmers were not the only victims.

    On a side note here is a video Bokator. Let me know what you guys think.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeNixADacYI&mode=related&search=

  124. Yo Minh, you’re a cool dude. I feel as though I should warn you about kim sean, he seems like a fraud. What he teaches doesn’t resemble traditional Boktaor. I think he’s in it for the name or fame if you will, rather than keeping the Art true to form.

    If I were you I’d find another Kru that teaches the traditional Kbach Kun Boran, rather than the hybrid hapkido/boktaor (which is only one Mae of Kun Boran.)

    In any case you don’t need to kill people so don’t sweat it if you don’t learn it, Pradal Serey is all about Sneet (technique) or basics.

  125. what I meant to say was Pradal Serey is an ok alternative if you don’t find the genuine article.

    here’s an article I found that gives others opinions of Kim Sean’s Bokator school.

    Tournament Sets Stage To Pass On Fighting Tradition

    Friday, October 6, 2006

    By Kay Kimsong and John Maloy
    THE CAMBODIA DAILY

    At the age of 80, Mao Khann is not to be trifled with.

    In the croaking rasp of a veteran smoker, she related how she recently
    took on eight men harassing her grown-up son. Putting her 66 years of
    martial arts training to the test, she sent the gang of ruffians
    running for the hills of her native Kampot province.

    Last week, Mao Khann was among 307 practitioners of the Cambodian
    martial art of bokator who flocked to Phnom Penh for the country’s
    first-ever national championship of this all-but-forgotten fighting
    system.

    “I might die soon,” Mao Khann said on Saturday morning as she and other
    fighters showed their varying degrees of mastery of the art-which
    nearly died out completely under the Khmer Rouge regime.

    “Today I am so proud to show my technique to the younger generation,”
    she said.

    But by the time the sun set on Olympic Stadium, those feelings of pride
    gave way to accusations of a rigged competition and promises of a
    lifelong boycott.

    Many provincial bokator masters now believe that the Yuthkun Khmer
    Foundation, which organized the event, unfairly awarded nearly all the
    prizes to fighters from Phnom Penh.

    Twenty awards were handed out over the course of the five-day
    competition for both fighting and individual displays of technique-
    only two went to the entrants from the provinces.

    “I am very upset and won’t come back again,” said Meas Sarann, 61, a
    bokator trainer for the Seila Angkor Club in Siem Reap province.

    “They cheated us; we won’t trust Phnom Penh people again,” he said.

    Organizers in Phnom Penh admitted that the event had experienced some
    problems, but dismissed claims that city people had cheated the
    competitors from the provinces.

    Meas Sok, a trainer from Kampot town, said that he was positive that
    the competition was skewed in favor of the capital.

    “Why was there such unfair treatment between Phnom Penh clubs and
    provincial clubs?” he asked.

    “I saw that my dub…always got perfect scores, so why didn’t we
    receive a single prize?”
    Sorm Van Kin, leader of Club Korma Tep Meanrith in Kompong Chhnang
    province and a judge at the competition, was another trainer who said
    he would boycott any future Yuthkun Khmer Federation competitions.

    “I would rather that my knowledge of bokator died with me than display
    it so others can reap all the benefits,” Sorm Van Kin said.

    Many older bokator enthusiasts derided the style of the youthful
    competitors, particularly those from Phnom Penh.

    The general feeling was that many were not using true bokator, but
    rather a mutated hybrid that included large doses of Tae Kwon Do and
    Judo.

    “These fighters are not fighting with real bokator techniques,” said
    Meas Sok, the 61-year-old trainer from Kampot. “Some of these kids look
    like crabs walking,” he added.
    The flailing frenzy of the fights certainly was sharply different from
    the flowing movements of older competitors.

    The provincial trainers kept low, protecting their bodies while they
    looked for openings to hit. The younger fighters struck violently and
    often, their ungloved hands gashing opponents’ heads or knocking out
    teeth.

    Ros Serey, 50, trainer for the Rasmei Angkor Club in Siem Reap and
    judge during the competition, said that even though they had earned few
    medals, provincial fighters had held their own against their Phnom Penh
    rivals.

    “I gave the scores myself,” he said. “I know that provincial bokator
    should have had more winners.”

    Ros Serey said that he was so disgusted that he would shave his head as
    part of a solemn vow to never again participate in the bokator
    championship.

    Hok Chheang Kim, an organizer for the event, maintained that the
    judging was fair and the real problem was that the provincial club
    leaders didn’t fully understand the rules.

    “This is of our mistake, because [the judges] were only trained for
    three days before the event,” he said, adding that only one of the
    seven judges was from Phnom Penh.

    Hok Chheang Kim said that the provincial judges were not looking at the
    big picture.

    “Sometimes, only one judge gave a good score, but the others gave bad
    scores,” he said.

    With his club walking away with 12 of the 20 medals, San Kim Sean, an
    organizer of the competition and grand master of his own Phnom Penh
    bokator club, said the controversy or the boycott didn’t concern him.

    “I’m not worried about bokator suffering because of 20 old people who
    are not happy,” he said.

    In the end, no competitor left completely empty-handed.

    Every fighter is to receive $10 from the Ministry of Education, Youth
    and Sports.

    Chea Chamreoun, an adviser to the government who presided over the
    championship, also announced that every competitor would receive an
    additional $250, directly from Prime Minister Hun Sen.

    “Our bokator is reborn today,” Chea Chamreoun told the crowd of
    spectators.

    But Meas Sarann, the trainer from Siem Reap, couldn’t have agreed less.

    “[B]okator may have been reborn in the morning,” he said of Saturday’s
    competition.

    “But it died by evening time.”

  126. khmer from essan on

    from wat i know of bokator & wat i’ve researched, i agree dat diz bokator is a new school version of kun khmer boran. kun khmer boran is da original & diz new bokator is san kim sean version of kun khmer boran. san kim sean is a 10thdan hapkido master, so he probably mix his hapkido wif kun khmer boran, dats wat i reckon any way, diz new bokator look 2 flash & showy. i prefer da old & original school of kun khmer boran.

    i dnt know of any kun khmer boran kru in essan, mite be sum around but most probably all left 4 cambodia wen da thai finaly conquered thailand.there is also muay boran haha, looks jus like a bad thai version of kun khmer boran, muay boran does’nt look as complete & authentic as kun khmer boran.

  127. SITYODTONG, SOMERVILE,

    I can”t be bother talking to you or even think how much an arshole you really are. I accept the Thai boxing as what it is and where it is at, in fact I admire what the Thai have done with the sport. You sound like a dumb white guy whom is so arrogant and racist! I am a proud Khmer and I promote Kun Khmer, no need to take it on promoters or Khmer club. If you didn’t know 90% of all the top fighters in Sityodtong (Thailand) are Khmer blood. To name a few; Samart, Ratarnoy, Yodatchai better ask Kru Yodtong when you see him. The back bone of Thai boxing are Khmer blood.

    Like I said to all the Khmer, don’t waste your time arguing with ignorant westerners whom probably only been to Thailand once or twice and thinks they are more Thai than the Thai themselves.

  128. Sovannah Phum and the other people who has comments on Kimsean,

    Thanks for the look out. I shall definitely evaluate any teacher before committing to him. I have been around the martial arts scene for a while, and trust me I have met mostly frauds, including some very famous “krus” who are frauds in “Muay Thai.” Not saying that Kimsean is a fraud, but definitely have my suspicions. I was going to Cambodia to look for him, but will definitely ask around for feedback before committing to anything. BTW, I read that article already too. I’ll also, be in Siem Riep so will check out the gyms sited in that article.

    If anyone knows and a good Bokator or Khmer Boran teacher in Shihanoukville or Phenom Penh let me know. I prefer Shihanoukville because its a beach resort :-). I think I will make a trip to Stockton when I have a chance just to ask around. Please post sites articles or anything related to Bokator or Pradal Serey or Khum Khmer Gyms here (whether in US, South Vietnam, or Cambodia). I can give you my e-mail if this doesn’t work. Thanks everyone.

  129. Hey Rumtum, you explained very well and you provided very good proof.

    No one can stop your voice of speaking the truth. Your voice of truth will bring you honor and dignity and your voice of truth will help others to understand the truth about fake and the truth about real. Without the truth, South Eats Asia and the rest of the world couldn’t never ever be in peace.

    Thailand is a bad bad example for Cambodia and bad bad for Southeast Asia and bad bad for the rest of the world. Khmer people are trying to bring democracy to Cambodia and Thailand is bringing a dictator military junta to control the country and the Thai military junta govt shut up Thai people who dare to speak up the truth.

  130. Rumtum, you are too much! Have you gotten a cat scan lately? You are a warped and twisted little man aren’t you? Let me ask you all this, if and I said “IF!!” cambodian influenced Thai , then who influence cambodia??? Are they above influence??? You need to be influenced in order to influence others. Like the jin kung fu is influenced by animals(tigers, monkeys , etc.). What have you to say?

  131. What is really the truth?? The fact is we are modernized and civilized. If you got nothing to boast about your country stop being jealous. I know one thing, Thailand has NEVER been colonized!!! A fact is something you can prove! And you speak of beliefs and opinions! Thailand this, Thailand that. Why are you so bitter??? And to you khmer thai nationals get a therapist or something and work out your issues. Your so pathetic! We are what we are, you are what you are. Leave Thailand alone. Your country is nothing. You are trying to get attention by tarnishing Thais and it’s sickening how bad you want to be recognized for something that you will curse another country.

  132. To Kote Law Loi:

    You haven’t got back to me yet what you’ve asked me. Let’s do it one at the time, would you. Here’s what you said;

    “And rumtum, I find it funny you claim that Thais stole from khmers but have no conclusive proof!!
    Prove it. You know how to right?? NO??!?!? Really? Ok, I’ll make this simple…Take me back in time….Wait, you can’t??? then I guess you have no absolut evidence huh?? Pretty big assumptions for someone with no proof.”

    And here’s my proof to prove you. This Thai Url named Khmer tattoo image as Thai Temple Tattoo, do you think the language written on the tattoo image is Thai or is Khmer?

    http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s247/Horitexan/Thai_Temple_Tattoo.jpg

  133. To Babyja:

    Thailand has never been colonized, but go to Kanchanaburi cemetery, there are plenty of foreigners died for Thailand!!!

    The fact is that Thailand is not modernized and civilized as you think and that proving that you did not speak the truth about Thailand. Do you think being modernized and civilized like Thailand by using military junta to control over the country and using lese majeste law to shut up freedom of people thinking on Thai monarchy at this 21st century, is that you calling modernized and civilized Thailand?

    Who care about Thailand, if Mr. Nopstar didn’t post a subject about Kun Khmer Boran on his site and wants people to leave comment, do you think Khmer like me would like to waste my time arguing just about Thailand? If Mr. Nopstar can’t stand with freedom of Khmer thinking, he has the power to delete all my comments as he wish.

    Who care about Thailand, if Mr. Minh doesn’t stop making comparison Cambodia to Thailand for nonsense? If you can’t find anything to reply, don’t get upset yourself and tell Khmer what to do. We’re not living in Cambodia or in Thailand where freedoms of thinking are limited. We’re living in a free world where people are free to comment on the subject, if you feel bitter and pathetic yourself, just address yourself directly to the site owner Mr. Nopstar.

  134. cambodia got influence from india and we admit that… but thai dont amit they got it from us… oh well…

  135. wtf u talking about? on

    hey everyone bokator khmer is gonna be shown on history channel i don’t know the date but i think its the second to the last expisode on human weapon….if u don’t believe me check out historychannel.com and go under human weapon i think this might open a lot of people eyes and ears aite peeps peace out to my khmer and the people who support and believe in us later.

  136. Hey Frank, I think Cambodia owns part of Indian culture, because the first Khmer royal family was Indian-Khmer :-)

  137. hey guys ,
    150+ plus comments do u think we have done anything constructive from the first comment to now? i dont think so because both sides want to tell everyone wat they know to be true, and the side listening refuses to accept eachothers point of view. I am cambodian. I dont want to burn bridges and start erecting fences all around cambodia. i hope that the thai people on here feel the same way. why do we have to fight? lets stop pointing fingers at eachother and try to learn from eachother. cambodia, thai, laos vietnam , w.e your nationality may be in south east asia. We are a very small part of the world. if we are willing to kill eachother over something as trivial as this I dont think there will ever be hope for us. I can see why u guys feel so strongly about this subject too, because it is very personal, but that doesnt mean u guys have to elminate all other possibilities. your mind is like a parachute, it works best when open.

  138. Littleman,

    I think your comment is a fitting end to what has been a very polarizing post. I want to thank everyone for participating in this post.

    All great civilizations go through decline, Greek, Egyptian, Roman etc. All of these civilizations have left their mark and influenced countless cultures.

    Thai’s should recognize and acknowledge the influence the Khmer culture has played in Thai culture.

    As I originally wrote in my post, some 150+ comments ago… I sincerely hope my Khmer friends can rebuild. I hope that I’ll soon see more Khun Khmer events in the near future.

    May you all be well.
    Nopstar

  139. In 1975, 1.5 million Cambodians perished under the rule of the Khmer Rouge Regime. Along with them they took the Cambodian kickboxing scene. Fighters were either killed, forced to quit, or to fled the country. Leaving behind empty boxing rings..

    After years of coping, Cambodians are back on the fighting scene. The majority of them lacking the proper necessities to train. Earning only enough to get by on a daily basis..

    They fight to make a living.. they fight for pride.. They fight because it’s deeply rooted in their culture.. They fight to reclaim what was once their greatness.. To reclaim what the world knows as Thailand’s “Muai Thai”.

  140. The Thai’s do acknowledge the Khmer influence in our culture. From language to art and also the dark arts

    But the Khmers are trying to take credit for something they DID NOT invent.

    The main claim to Khmer ownership of Muay Thai heritage is that the bass relief in Angkor wat shows their art from the year 900AD. If this is the only claim than it’s not a good one. There are records of the Burmese art of Lethwei which predate Angkor wat by a good 600 years to the Pyu Empire of Burma.

    As you would also know Lethwei, Boran and Bokator are all very similar but Muay Thai (calling it Thai instead of Boran for the sake of easy naming) is a more simplified and refined system. It does not include the many animal stances/variants as Lethwei and Bokator does.

    Now delving back into the Thai people’s history, we see that the Thai people migrated through Burma to reach SEA and will undoubtedly have their first contact with the Burmese before the Khmers. Also going by Muay Thai history there are many records of the Thai Kings/Princes being trained in the Burmese art of war (which would no doubt consist of armed and unarmed combat) King Naraeusuen to name one of the fathers of Muay Thai that was trained in such a way. He helped to shape Muay Thai to what it is today, so saying that Muay Thai is copied from the Khmers is a false statement.

    Now going by this who is to say the Khmers didn’t steal the art from the Burmese and are trying to take credit for it? The style has been around for a very long time perhaps before the turn of the century. The Mon kingdoms that were there BEFORE the Khmers invaded them may have had a similar fighting style.

    All in all from the research that I have done into this subject has led me to the conclusion that the Burmese and Lethwei are the origins of Muay Thai. Not the Khmers and Bokator.

  141. Also another thing that people here are not considering and Minh included is what came before the Khmers in SEA? The khmer people DID NOT originate in SEA and are definately not native to the area.

    Thier migration route has taken them from what we can see now as far eastern europe through india and across the sea to SEA. To say that they originated SEAculture is a big no no.

    The first great Khmer king of angkor lived as a prince in Java. on his return he brought back with him the culture that was found there (art, music and who knows what else) Khmer culture is all influenced by all those around.

    The Thai people have never refuted the fact that the Khmer culture has heavily influenced Thai culture. The language, art, architecture and of course something integral to all thai vs khmer debates, the sak yantra. The Wai Kru has more of a religious aspect to it than what most people may think. The Wai Kru (Guru) originally came from india with Brahmanism and Hinduism. It teaches one to pay homage to ones teachers and respect for those who teach you.

    Both countries have very close ties to religion from Hinduism, Brahmanism and most importantly in modern times Buddhism. If you connect the history trail for these thigns and SEA it draws up a clearer look at the migration of the culture base.

    Now with all this Thai vs Khmer debate going on we forget to add one very important player onto the map. The Burmese. They also heavily influenced The Thai as well and successfully invaded a few times. They also play a major role in the migration of culture from india using the trade route from the north so not just the Khmers influence coming from the south. Add to this again another player to the board. The mon kingdom of Dhvaravati which used to stand pretty much on in the top half of present day Thailand. Religion, art architecture and all that Jazz were very similar to the Burmese and Khmer in that they were a culture also heavily influenced by India. The Mon kingdom were there BEFORE the Khmers so saying that the khmers brought that culture into the SEA region cannot be correct since older empires were already there.

    It’s already 6am so I will cut this short. The Style of fighting was already there from the beginning. None of the people Thai or Khmer are natives to the region so both cannot claim to be the ORIGIN of the style which of course the Thai’s dont.

    Khmers find it hard to get a long with anyone. I hate to say it but its almost like its born and bred into them. Why did the Khmers fail in the end? it was because they did not try to get a long with everyone else. The Thai assimilated the Mon into their kingdom. The Khmers turned them into slaves. In more modern times the same thing happened with the KR. They wanted to keep everything pure Khmer anything foreign they will kill or destroy.

    Thai culture is unique in that it is a blend of MANY different cultures. You cant claim to be the sole origin of something that is so diverse. By doing so it just shows the true intentions and greed to drag down and claim the fame of others.

    I know not all Khmers are like this but it seems a lot of people get brain washed by the government into being this way.

    To end matters lets just give the Origin of Muay Thai to Burma :)

    and to kote loe loi,

    post kong khun ta lok mak mak luey 555. Tum hai ai puak camaen doo muan khon ngor mai ru ruang, muan ben dek bai leuy. Daa dai sa’ jai dee ^_-

  142. Thers 2 forms of dark arts in Thailand. The Burmese and the Khmer forms. Both of which use ther own set of Yantra. But according to the people the Khmer stuff is more potent and lethal.

    There are many Kru’s/Ajarns in Thailand that cast spells and divine futures and past lives etc I even have one back in Thailand :)

    The Thai people are very spiritual and very superstitious but their Chinese heritage of talismans and God worship is on a different scale than the Khmer/Burmese Dark Arts.

    There are 2 types of Dark Arts.

    1. Khong soong (High Art) This side of the art has to do with gods and angels, the Kow Song (literally being possessed) and divining.

    2. Khong Tum (Low Art) This side revolves around the more lethal dangerous side. This can involve invoking bad spirit to endanger someone, causing missfortune or even sending objects into someones body (such as a rusty nail).

    As this was probably around during the Angkor period, it would probably payto be in the know how and learn the arts to protect yourself. I wouldnt say the using of the Yantra, the pah prachiat and the monkon were “stolen” from Khmer culture. It would be more a long the lines of one of an old tradition being assimilated into the diverse Thai culture.

  143. drumsofdoom on

    There’s a Kbach kun Khmer boran school in Germany:

    http://serey-boxing.de
    http://pradal-khmer.de

    Both sites are worth clicking around, even if the second one is in German. Lots of pics, some of which can be greatly enlarged by clicking & dragging them into the URL bar (try randomly) and some good basic info which describes essentially the same history which nopstar found out. It’s critical, but not anti-Thai (master Vath is also a Taekwon-Do master and yet has nothing to do with that “Japan vs Korea” and “North vs South Korea” thing surrounding Taekwon-Do ;-)

  144. drumsofdoom on

    P.S. Great to see the many interesting, informative, controversial posts on this page! I’ll take the time to read them all tonight.