Keeping up the standards?
January 28, 2010 by nopstar
I just saw this article in the Bangkok Post… apparently the Pua Yai in Thailand are concerned about foreign gyms keeping up MuayThai standards.
I think it’s a horrible idea… They want to have a standard by which MuayThai is taught? Sounds more like a decent money making venture then a genuine concern for the well being of foreign nak muays. If they’re so concered with foreign nakmuays being exposed to crap muaythai they should first start at home. They should abolish the two tier “Farang” tax at the major stadiums… make it less cost prohibitive. If they’re truly concerned with standards then these training courses should be offered free of charge.
Considering yesterdays discussion around McDojo’s, some of you may think this is actually a decent idea. There will always be good and bad gyms. That’s always going to be a factor.
People will always try to create lineages… like BJJ or KungFu. I studied under Ajarn, or Kru so and so. But that doesn’t necessarily mean quality MuayThai. You can do personals with a Lumpini Champ and that doesn’t guarantee quality MuayThai.
This whole standardization and codification just reeks of Thai bureaucracy and corruption. Why they’re at it they should standardize all the recipes for Thai restaurants abroad. There are a couple restaurants here in London that need to be put out of their misery.
100% agreed Nop. Studying under somebody who knows there stuff is only the first step. There is no real way to ensure “standards” without it turning into a big kickback scheme. People just need to be conscious consumers when looking for a camp to train at – does the instructor look like he knows his stuff? do the students have crisp technique? does the instruction focus on technique or do the students all go balls-to-the-wall all the time? do they have both beginners as well as advanced? do they train fighters or just people looking for a workout? is the attitude one of a martial art or a monster truck ass-kick-a-thon? Answers to these questions will give you pretty much everything you need to know, IMHO.
This is a tough subject…On the one hand, I agree with what you’re saying nopstar. However, there’s a part of me that feels some level of standardization would in theory be very beneficial to the sport.
At the end of the day though, the execution of it all will never work. You’re right: studying under a great champion doesn’t really mean anything in the way of your own skills as a fighter or teacher. The same goes for being certified under a sanctioning body. I think these things certainly help in the way of credibility to a degree. At the very least, lineages mean you worked at something (hopefully not paid for only); but ultimately the experience for students will be the same: they must go and experience the instructor or gym in order to make judgement on its quality, and see if said lineage (if any) has been upheld.
If these guys in Thailand can pull it off and create a decent program, I do believe it can be a great educational tool. Seminars and workshops can always add to your knowledge. Like you, I am just concerned they are just doing it to milk people out of money….
I don’t know if I agree…
The idea of having a fat ‘Certified’ badge on my shorts is somewhat enticing.
I’d also wouldn’t mind paying alot of money to do frequent ‘tests’ to show my progression in the sport, although I must admit belts would look funny with the shorts.
;-)
Muay thai’s standardization should be regulated through competition. There shouldn’t be any greater need to regulate than this. I have never seen a mcdojo Muay thai gym in the UK (visited most in kent) and the only place i found ‘Bad’ MT training was in a MMA gym (as expected really).
I don’t know anything about the politics or bureaucracy of the Thai Governing bodys. But Certifications havent helped the mcdojo karate/kung fu/TKD scene and i can see it giving nothing but false assurances to Students and Big Fat wallets to governing bodys.
I don’t understand enough of the situation to make any judgments, but it seems like a waste of cash for some and a way to make money for others.
why are we using malaipets picture there?
I believe i heard the WMC is gonna standardize Mt in the US. And start a rank system. And hopefully the smokers will come back, with more regs. most likely..Dont know how I feel about it yet. What do you guys think?
It would be good, if it wasn’t for the negatives that come along with it, one of those ones ay ;) haha.
Anyone read the story of what happened to Kru Mark Wakeling when he was starting out? > http://www.scorpionsthaiboxing.co.uk/krumark1.htm … it might help stop that sort of thing happening, but I doubt it. I mostly agree with you Nop, Just seems like red tape and money making!
i’m 100 percent against it.
i’ll add passionately so.
I’m against it as well. Besides, who would set the standards?
this is going to be a long one….but i’ll start off with…i agree with nop.
i’ll also add that, to me, the whole concept is ridiculous.
although i understand the concern about what is being passed off as mt in foreign countries, i’ll ask you this…
who will these governing individuals be?
where will they come from?
but most importantly, to me…who could believe that they have the authority to not only create but enforce a standard of what mt is? would you trust someone who felt they had that right? i wouldn’t.
i don’t know how many conversations and debates i’ve heard in this country among thai nak muays, promoters and trainers alike that debate the very issue of what is good muay thai. of what is authentic muay thai.
mt to me, is akin to art and matters of the spirit. it shouldnt be controlled. particularly by a group of affluent individuals who have the power/connections/$ to enforce any sort of personal agenda.
there are a lot of watered down schools, people teaching wack technique, but they deserve to exist. i think the answer lies in education. push authentic mt. promote it. train foreigners authentically in thailand. send thai nak muays overseas. let them dominate the ring. allow them to be cultural representatives of their own individual mt lineages. and what if they don’t dominate in the ring? then so what. perhaps something good will come out of that too.
i’ll use the example of bjj. if i remember correctly, the japanese brought trad jj to brazil. the brazilians adapted it, used the priniciples and created something of their own. i suspect a lot of people in the growing stages dismissed what the gracie family was doing. to be honest, i could see myself being one of those people – but over time, look what they gave to the world. another powerful art form. bjj. and where was this art proven? in the ring. not in the boardroom.
also, the whole concept of standardizing and quantifiable ‘levels’ in mt is ludicrous. how many of you have met brown and black belt karate kids that you took seriously? how many people have these belts that believe they have ‘mastered’ karate? a lot. you don’t think people didn’t get pushed to new levels to maintain students – to keep $ rolling in to personal businesses? did this preserve authentic karate? its integrity?
the whole concept of creating a system based on external validation (aka levels) further deterioates the heart of anything. why? because it’s a construct, a system that in actuality, doesn’t exist. to have someone say, ‘you’re at this level now’ may benefit the ego in the short term, but in the longterm is detrimental to the individual. to rely on external validation promotes weakness within. you are relying on someone else’s belief of what you’re capable of? a level, a belt, whatever is somone’s OPINION of what you can do. nothing more. you know if you’re good or not, and if you really want to know – step into the ring.
and if you don’t want to fight? then so what. continue learning. keep your eyes open. seek understanding. grow.
i don’t believe any person or group of people are an ‘authority’ on anything that is so individualistic and inheritantly free.
Here here. Well put. I know that I will never train at any gym where there are “levels” or a ranking system.
And I’m sure that if anyone were serious about Muay Thai and they trained at a crap gym, they would learn about it quick enough, learn what to look for, and then find a legit gym. I think the thought of standardizing anything is just a way for those that set the standards to make money by charging for certificates and licenses and such. In turn raising the prices of training and in turn doing nothing but hirting the gyms when falang can’t stay as long or what not.
in short, i think there should be some worldwide standards of muaythai out there, but, like nop posted, it’s really doubtful that any initiative for the preservation of the art that happens like this has the art in mind over setting up a a quick scheme for money and/or influence.
@ldf: hi ldf. not that i disagree with your post, but how would you explain that fact that while karate black belts are hardly taken seriously anymore, bjj brown and black belts are? if this is generally true (i find it to be, but that can be debated), wasn’t this because the brazilians were super-selective about who they promoted to those levels (at least in the past), thus quality-controlling their art? again, i’m not saying muaythai needs any of these ranking systems, but looking into the issue of it could be done or not. also, i disagree that muaythai is so free that anything that is called that is that. is it muaythai anymore if all the traditions are stripped away, like performing wai khru and wearing mongkon and pa prajiad? and how about, on top of that, removing clinch-work, knees, and elbows, and then replacing the kicking techniques with techniques from, say, korean martial arts? this actual scenario routinely happens today in different parts of the world. not saying these are not perfectly legitimate things to do if you feel inclined to do so, but in my eyes, it’s not muaythai anymore. isn’t there some division between muaythai and everything else, even if it’s more of range than an absolute?
@josh: if you have experience in the sport, i think it become easy to recognize the real people from the fake ones, but i think it’s very difficult for beginners. check the link inka hero posted about steve wakeling. almost certainly, he has been very gifted martial artist /nakmuay since his younger days, but even he got taken for a ride for a couple years.
I dont believe in an “international standardization” but on the other hand I do believe in “levels”. How many times have we seen a beginner trying to spar with advanced practitioners only for the beginner to get hit, freak out, and injure himself and/or someone else. Or a beginner with an advanced student, where the advanced student has problems executing the combinations. sorry i gotta keep it short because im at work.
Ha ha by standards wht do they mean. It sounds more like karate organization trying to emphasise standards in their dojo’s worldwide. Like nop said we can do personal sessions with a lumpinee champ and still find it not up to the level training. It dosen’t mean that a good trainer has to be a gud fighter. Angelo dundee who trained the greatest of all time muhamad ali can be taken as an example.
Again by emphazing these standards nothing is going to be acheived execpt personal gains. Crap gyms and training will still exist execpt with an advantage stating that they are following the MT standards.
hey gorillapalmz. blasting through this…but i agree with your post – i believe if to much is stripped away, it isn’t muay thai any longer. i think i could label myself, if i had to, as a traditionalist. enough where i’ve been investigating muay boran and krabi krabong – looking for more technique – what i meant as being inheritently free – was the internal aspect of the art. as far as belt systems in bjj – i don’t know enough about it to comment – but that’s a good point. thanks for the post.
I totally understand gyms wanting to make money off the sport, and requiring certification to be a recognized coach is a great way to generate some $$$, but the sport already has rules. I would think these would be all the “standards” we need. Western boxing doesn’t have a standard way of teaching, why should Muay Thai?
I`m also a traditionalist :-) I would like to see how they put the idea across to the monks in the temple who teaching muaythay.
If they really regulate the sportsystem of muaythay in general, I have to switch to muaychaiya or Kmerboxing. The style of fighting in Burma is also very interessting. Maybe these styles become more popular then. Sad but we will see what happens ;-)
Peace&MT
Wow! What an interesting article. I don’t really know where I stand on this yet. I’ll have to think on it some more and return with a more thought out response but first off I’ll say, whether you believe in standards or not, enforcing them is almost impossible.
Utah has some laws that are absolutely absurd in terms of enforcement. So really, on a purely pragmatic level, its pointless.