How many times have you been watching an MMA fight and heard the announcer talk about a fighters ‘beautiful Muay Thai’. How many times have you heard Joe Rogan say ‘Beautiful leg kick’ even though the fighter he is referring to kicked his opponent square in the shin. Or ‘That guy has really good teeps and front kicks’, huh, what.
These are just some examples of how MMA helps and hurts the sport that we love. On one hand they are giving Muay Thai a lot more exposure by constantly talking about it but at the same time they are hurting it because either A. The fighters Muay Thai is garbage or 2. It isn’t even a Muay Thai technique that they are using. So yes, any exposure is good but misrepresenting the sport is counterproductive.
Anytime someone throws a leg kick or uses the clinch does not automatically make it ‘Muay Thai’. There is more than one martial art that uses techniques similar to Muay Thai so just because someone throws an elbow does not automatically make it ‘Muay Thai’. And the phrases ‘beautiful Muay Thai’ or ‘world class striker’ are as overly used as referring to every upcoming fight as “EPIC”. There are plenty of guys in MMA that have very good Muay Thai but just because someone has good stand up in MMA doesn’t mean that they have great stand up. You need to realize that these are two different sports. Yes they are similar in the sense that they both have stand up but that’s about it. A great wrestler with rudimentary stand up can look like a ‘world class striker’ only because they have no fear of being taken down. Whereas an actually world class striker can come off as basic because they know that most of their techniques will only result in them on their backs.
They call Anderson Silva a world class Muay Thai striker, but if you look at his techniques most of them resemble karate or tae kwon do, not Muay Thai, other than possibly his clinch or elbows. And it still surprises me that guys that have been in this sport for years still have very rudimentary Muay Thai or stand up skills, especially when it comes to elbows. Other than a select few you rarely see elbow techniques other than when someone is being held on the ground and it’s more of a forearm smash. I look at the two times Silva fought Franklin and his inability to defend against the clinch. Sure Silva’s clinch is good but he was doing day one ‘don’t ever use this as a defense’ defense to the clinch, both times.
I realize that there are a lot more things MMA guys have to focus on and don’t expect them to be able to hang with actual ‘world class strikers’(for the most part) but most of this stuff is just basics. I have trained with a lot of MMA guys over the years and am constantly surprised at how good some of their stand up is, yet in fights you rarely see it. I think a big part of this is that they don’t come from a stand up background and in fights you go to what you know; you go to your instincts. At the same time I was shocked the first time I realized how bad some of their stand up is, even some of the guys that have been world champs. I remember being at Toddy’s years ago and watching Master Toddy pretty much have to treat a certain ex world champ like a child in teaching him how to throw a straight punch, it just blew me away. I realize that stand up might not be their main focus yet after more than a decade in the sport you would think that some of this would just sink in, guess not. What are your thoughts on the level Muay Thai in MMA and why it has or hasn’t gotten better over the years?
March 10, 2011 at 9:29 am
Great article, Huggy Bear. I agree with you 100%. This is Chatri Sityodtong with Evolve MMA in Singapore. I am Thai and I come from a Muay Thai background, but I also train BJJ. I love MMA and I am a big fan of the UFC. As someone who currently coaches both professional Muay Thai and MMA fighters, I think each sport has its own challenges. However, when Joe Rogan says “world-class Muay Thai striker” about any of the UFC fighters, I do wonder if he is just hyping up the fight or if he really means it (since he’s an advanced martial artist himself). MMA is a relatively new sport (compared to other martial arts) and the keys to success are still evolving greatly. In my opinion, the answer to your question is a matter of hours in the ring or on the mat and a matter of what works in the cage (versus in the Muay Thai ring).
If we assume that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert, then it is already impossible for an MMA fighter to have the quality of excellence as a purist in an individual art. A successful MMA fighter must be well-versed in Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Boxing, and Wrestling. The professional MMA fighters on the Evolve Fight Team train all 4 disciplines almost every day. Meanwhile, our professional Muay Thai fighters train only Muay Thai every day. A purist in one discipline will always look at only one of the 4 dimensions of an MMA fighter, but I am not sure it is a fair comparison. For example, we have several BJJ World Champs on the Evolve Fight Team here and they all say the same thing about Joe Rogan’s commentary when it comes to how he talks about BJJ Black Belts being world-class in the UFC. Most of our World Champs only consider BJJ World Champ Demian Maia and a couple others in the UFC to possess truly world-class BJJ. Everyone else in the UFC has average BJJ in their opinion.
Another thing is that what works in Muay Thai may not necessarily work in MMA (and vice-versa). At Evolve MMA, we’ve noticed that most elements of Muay Thai are very effective in the cage under MMA rules, but that some elements of Muay Thai simply do not apply. For example, the traditional Thai clinch work that you see in Thailand is not very effective against a wrestler who wants to take you down to the ground. However, it is very effective if you do it against another striker with limited wrestling knowledge. There are many other examples.
For me, I love both Muay Thai and MMA. Of course, Muay Thai is my first love and will always be the fire in my blood. There is nothing like Lumpinee Stadium on a big fight night. However, I have come to appreciate and love MMA too. One positive effect from MMA is that it has shown the world that Muay Thai is the most effective and devastating striking art in the world. It is the reason why most MMA fighters choose Muay Thai as their art of choice (instead of the other traditional striking arts). Either way, I believe that, over time, the quality of technique in MMA fighters will rise significantly as the sport develops.
In any case, great article, Huggy Bear!
March 11, 2011 at 5:01 am
Interesting reference to the 10 000 hour hypothesis. Were you making reference to the book “outliars”? I just had a conversation with one of my HR folks about that book and the 10000 hours that most “experts” in any field accomplished. I immediately related it to Muay Thai and put that book next on my list. I actually wanted to test it out with folks in my gym and our circle.
If true it is applicable to pretty much all aspects of life.
Anyway great post Kevin, and great follow up p`Chatri.
March 10, 2011 at 3:27 pm
I agree. I’ve always been appalled by the striking in MMA. Swing for the fences and hope for the best. I understand that certrain techniques may need to be modified, but I find myself watching and rolling my eyes whenever obvious strikes are not even attempted.
How does a ‘pro’ fighter not know the basics of the clinch? How many times do you see thai fighters get both hands on somebody’s head? Not often in my experience, since it’s so easy to neutralize.
How does somebody like Chuck Lidell reign supreme with such horrible technique? Any boxer would have one two-ed him in his shitty standup fights.
On a side note, I’d love to see some of these MMA fighters take damage from kicks and knees from a grinder thai fight.
March 10, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Great post. My 2 cents:
The quality of mma striking will go up. There is an interesting trend…the best fighters are the one that have skill in all aspects of mma, not just competence. So while Anderson Silva and GSP don’t have the best striking in the world (or straight up Muay Thai game), they are among the few fighters that have trained exclusively in striking. They also both train exclusively in grappling (ex. GSP wrestles with Olympic wrestlers, and Anderson in BJJ).
Is it any wonder that these 2 have cleaned out their divisions? They aren’t jacks of all trades, but kings in comparison to their competition.
I’ll use a GSP example again: he doesn’t box with a “striking coach”, he brought in Freddy Roach.
I think we are going to see (over the next 5 to 10 years) a rise in the number of athletes that train with specialists in their styles, and develop a truly well rounded game.
GSP and Anderson aren’t the best examples of world class MT, but they are the start of something that future champions will need to have,
As a result, I think more people are going to start learning traditional and complete Muay Thai, and add that to their repertoire. It’ll be one of the only ways to survive against the top competition.
March 10, 2011 at 7:25 pm
Hate to tell you this but it’s impossible to train exclusively in two things at once. But it is possible to train two things inclusively.
March 11, 2011 at 1:38 am
Yeah, the guy kind of worded it all funny like. I think what he meant is that a guy like GSP seeks out the best training partners from each relevant art, i.e. he trains with the best wrestlers, the best boxers, the best kickboxers etc. etc, which is true from what i’ve seen.
This is a big contrast to guys that stick with their team despite the fact that the coaches aren’t so good or experienced at certain aspects or use alot of “bro science” to make up for the stuff they don’t know. I’ve been to a few MMA gyms like this, no real expertise, those fuckers just wing it…
That being said, yeah if you train something exclusively that means you train in it only, with exclusion to other arts….
I sorely dislike MMA gyms, at least in America, alot of them are full of meatheads and guys with attitude problems, it really takes the respectful martial arts spirit out of things.
March 11, 2011 at 6:39 am
yeah, Tibun you have my point right. Bringing in the right guys for each aspect of the game, and not watering any of it down.
“Stack:
… But it is possible to train two things inclusively.”
Well, that’s probably what I meant. All I meant by “exclusively” was the attitude with which you train: regardless of your background, practice MT at and MT gym.
I find too many people walk into an MT gym and try to amalgamate styles right off the bat…consciously trying to add in an mma flavour or incorporate another style of footwork from a previous discipline. They don’t take the chance to really learn Muay Thai when they’re at a place that is giving them the real freaking thing (or closest to it); which is why they miss out and end up training at an mma gym that’s happy to water it down for them.
Either way… the end point I tried to make was that I’ve found more people are starting to prefer really learning MT from an MT place/person, and learning BJJ from a BJJ place/person.
March 10, 2011 at 7:36 pm
Nice article. I agree with Chatri, and I believe that the multiple facets of MMA does detract somewhat from the precision of one discipline. Generally, that is.
March 10, 2011 at 8:08 pm
Eh, I see others already said my point.
March 10, 2011 at 9:03 pm
Since, we’re all in pretty universal agreement here let’s make the comments about fun.
Here is some of my favorite UFC quote and yes I have actually seen UFC and much more than I care for:
1. Goldberg to Rogan: “You know Roy Jones Jr. respects the hands of Forrest Griffin”
2. Rogan : “I’ve never seen anyone get knocked out like that from a front teep”
3. Rogan “These guys are world class strikers”
4. Rogan and Goldberg “That was a great leg kick” *kick lands clearly on the opponents abdomen
I’ll think of more as time allows but this should be a decent start.
March 10, 2011 at 10:04 pm
Stack-
The first quote is real? hahahah
March 10, 2011 at 10:19 pm
It is 100% true. I think it was UFC 86 and the camera pans over to a bored looking Roy Jones Jr. And Goldberg spat his gems of wisdom for all to hear.
March 10, 2011 at 10:34 pm
Ok here’s more not specific to Muay Thai and thus not as germane to the topic but what the hell its funny:
Mike Goldberg: “Don’t forget coming up next it’s Blade the series…plenty of action, violence, vampire sexuality!”
Rogan: “Vampire sexuality, what’s that?”
Goldberg: “I don’t know, it was on a card they put in front of me”
————————————————————————————
Goldberg: “That eye is rocked!”
Goldberg: “Welcome back, Randy Couture. This fight brought to you by…”
*Sylvia gets knocked down in the first 8 seconds*
Rogan: “Big right hand! Sylvia is down!”
Goldberg: “…Shooter. Starring Mark Wahlberg in theatres next Friday.”
——————————————————————————————–
Joe Rogan: “Think of leg kicks as like in a video game. The more they take, their power goes right down.”
Goldberg: “I know what you’re thinking, mighty ball mighty ball DEEP DEEP DEEP!”
——————————————————————————————–
Joe Rogan: “Karo is wide open!”
Mike Goldberg: “Diaz smells the opening.”
—————————————————————————————–
Bas Rutten: He has a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
Stephen Quadros: Yes, well many of the fighters
have a black belt.
Bas Rutten: Yes, but in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu you cant
buy your belt like in say, Tae Kwon Do.
Stephen Quadros: Do you have any belts?
Bas Rutten: I have a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do.
———————————————————————-
And now a final from boxing because its just funny:
“Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth.” -Bob Arum
March 10, 2011 at 10:49 pm
LOL @ bas rutten
and LOL @ diaz smelling karos opening…
March 10, 2011 at 11:46 pm
Annoys me when Joe Roan says “the Thai clinch” just because someone has 2 hands around the opponents neck,as you guys know there is more to the clinch game in Muay Thai than that!.
On that subject I used to wrestle and quite recently I was sparring with a very good Nak Muay( Lerthoranee Phetwiiharn) and for fun shot a single leg at him,he just stuffed my head inbeetween my own legs lol,I tried it several times and he always defended well so Im not sure I totally agree with the part of Chatris(respect sir I love Sityodtong style) post about the Muay Thai clinch not bein effective against a wrestler,granted if the wresler shoots in from the outside with a double etc but then thats not clinch range is it?.
great article by the way Huggy:)
March 11, 2011 at 1:24 am
I believe a lot of these MMA fighters train a little bit of this style, a little bit of that style and then when they jump in the ring thats all you see is a LITTLE bit of this style or a LITTLE bit of that style. I believe to truly MASTER a Art you have to stick with it for years and Years. Maybe stick with a Art for 20 – 30 years. But you get lots ( Not All) But lots of MMA guys who just jump in the Ring after a couple months and think they are pro cuz they can bring another guy to the ground and elbow him in the head. I Honestly feel there is lots of Mc-Dojos out there that just rush these guys in the Ring and don’t teach the True ART of Muay Thai to the fighters. You get guys learning BASIC moves and they think they are PROS. Or think this is dress up time and treat Martial Arts as a “In thing” and not take it as a Life style. I feel a lot of LOVE for TRUE Martial Arts is fading away because of MMA / UFC. Just watch the Ultimate Fighter and then watch Contender Asia. You’ll see my point !
Osu.
March 11, 2011 at 2:31 am
nice article to start a nice debate, and kudos to stack for the examples of mma announcing gone wild :)
i personally don’t like MMA, and that’s because i like boxing and muay thai and i find MMA’s striking sloppy, but i think the reason for that is because they’re also worried about a grappling counterattack…if you have to worry about your missing kick/punch leading to a takedown , i’d assume that may make one rush/bungle thier strike…good topic !
March 11, 2011 at 4:30 am
Blame it on Joe Rogan and other dumb announcers.
Also, you cant just learn muay thai for 15 years then get into mma, youll never be successful at it unless you mix it up. Thats why alot of their muay thai arent polish enough, cant blame them.
mma fighters that have good muay thai.
Jose Aldo
Anderson Silva
Shogun Rua(Best muay thai fighter in my opinion)
Alistair Overeem
March 11, 2011 at 9:23 am
Vuyisile Colossa here in Hong Kong, I love the articile wow finally!!!
thank you Huggy.
March 11, 2011 at 9:33 am
Vuyisile-
Welcome to MMT!
March 11, 2011 at 11:12 am
LEAVE JOE ROGAN ALONE…
heh
March 11, 2011 at 7:47 pm
Cool. Colossa posting in here!
March 11, 2011 at 10:26 pm
I agree with SE.. LEAVE JOE alone!!
Here’s Joe Rogan’s speaking about the difference between MMA & K-1 Stand-up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtEaQ8bkowo
March 15, 2011 at 1:56 am
At Sambo,
You forgot Marco Ruas, Years ago he demonstrated to Paul Varlens(and everyone else) what a powerful low kick can do to a much bigger opponent’s front leg if you dont know how to do a simple “check”.
March 24, 2011 at 6:47 am
Thnank you, thank you. I’ve made the same argument before on my blog. I’m just glad that other muay thai bloggers recognize the gross lack of muay thai in MMA. And great point regarding the announcers. http://oldstylemuaythai.blogspot.com/2010_08_01_archive.html
March 29, 2011 at 1:55 am
joe rogan is a funny guy! half the time he over exemplifies about anything but thats wut commentators do. there still is exposure there cus he talks about it regardless if its true or not an so does everyone else. majority of the ppl watching dont know any better. i think its funny that he doesnt know wut hes talkin bout. goes to show he jus one of those guys that exaggerates bout anything and thats wut gives him a job. anyone can bullshit but some ppl jus do it a whole lot better! give him a break!
April 6, 2011 at 8:21 am
I think the exposure is mostly a good thing because it makes people ask the question; Muay thai? After that a person of the modern age will do his own research and will be lead to legit articles and videos of real Muay thai and its skillset.
As for MMA guys training well and showing good technique in the gym but not showing it in fighting, i think this has a lot to do with the lack of fights they have before turning professional. As MMA is still relativly a baby a sucessful fighter needs only 6-9 fights before he can be pushed up to the big leagues and end up on world wide telivsion. Or 3-5 fights if he has a pretty face and can endure being on reality TV. I dont think MMA fighters get as comfortable in the center stage.
The skill sets and the technique can be fantastic but for MMA i think confidence and creativity goes further than technique. There is so much more to worry about in MMA than Muay thai, you cant even check a kick without setting up someones double leg. The best strikers in MMA are the ones who are creative, because they make themselves unpredictable in a way you just cant do in MT. Because if you try it in MT someone has a teep or leg kick waiting for you off the bat.
Then you also have other variables, smaller gloves and easier Ko’s. You cant just sit there in the pocket unless your boxing is vastly superior. Why leg kick when you can throw a stupid Arm punch and still knock someone out?
April 6, 2011 at 10:19 am
good points brah.