34 responses so far ↓

• 1 spydaman // Aug 19, 2008 at 7:49 am

  Let me be the first to comment on this one.
  No…never in my life have I heard any other music playing during a MT fight other than either the traditional thai instrumental or no music at all. I have however seen people do other non-Muay Thai things such as:
  -Adding a Kamehame (fireball), or cowboy “Gunslinging” motions at the end of their Ram Muay
  - People not entering the ring by goin over the ropes
  - People tossing their prajiads (arm bands) during a fight etc…

  Anyway let me stick to subject at hands (The traditional MT instrumental). I’m a Muay Thai fan, so to me the traditional music fits the whole Muay Thai experience, I welcome it and enjoy it. In retrospect, there is a difference between a “Muay Thai fan” and a “Fight fan” who is watching a Muay Thai fight.
  A Muay Thai fan enjoys everything that is Muay Thai (music included) while a Fight fan just wanna see the fight and nothing else.

  To me personally, changing the Muay Thai music seems like a slap in the face of the country who created. If you can’t respect then u don’t need to be a part of it (my opinion). Now with that said….I also have to understand that if we are trying so hard to make the sport of Muay Thai as mainstream as possible we will have to make some sacrifices.

  I luv MT just the way it is but I’m gonna be honest..numerous were the times were I have heard things like “WTF is this Shit they playing??….that shit is annoying…..that shit is making my ears bleed, shit sounds like a cat getting raped”….basically….the music turns off a lotta people, which I’m sure is the reason why they changed it into that new age shit playing in that vid.

  To sum it all up…I bet u a quarter of the people in that audience came for the “Muay Thai experience” ……the other 3/4 came for the fight only…(ethically speaking it’s a bad decision…financially speaking it’s a good one and I’m sure they care more about the “Financially” than the “Ethically”). I think that’s their way of meeting both needs.

  So the real question is what do we do?…Maintain the purety of Muay Thai while alienating an audience that will help the sport become as mainstream as MMA…or soccer??
  or do we accomodate the masses by eliminating certain things thus making this sport more interesting to that untapped market but ultimately losing the authenticity of the sport??
  Also..it’s been shown over and over that “Authenticity” and “Popularity” are oxymorons.

• 2 ashtonsf // Aug 19, 2008 at 8:29 am

  I was at this fight and one of the guys in the ring was from our gym. The music was chosen by the other fighter and I thought it odd that they would play music chosen by one fighter (maybe our guy consented to it–have yet to find out). Needless to say–yeah, that music sucks. I think the DJ screwed up a bit because he also played it so loud that nobody, including the fighters, could hear the bell when the round ended. One might make the argument as well that it may give one fighter a mental edge if it’s their music. Regardless of that, it was a great fight and both fighters fought really well. But I think we all could have done without the music. With regard to tradition etc, I can certainly understand your desire to guard against the tradition being watered down with different music or adjusting the ram muay. It becomes more about the individual fighter and less about their respect and part in the whole art/sport/tradition. With so many nationalities and personalities out there in the sport, it’s bound to happen. On the positive side, there were other fighters there that night that really seemed to keep it real with the ram muay and seemed to carry a lot of respect for muay thai in general. It was nice to see.

• 3 kes3009 // Aug 19, 2008 at 1:35 pm

  This is CRAP !!!
  Lets be sucked in by the Western World and Change Everything……I Don’t like this at all, Tecno at a Muay Thai Fight ARE YOU KIDDING ME !!!
  wow I think this is crap !!!

• 4 kes3009 // Aug 19, 2008 at 1:36 pm

  Don’t get me wrong i’m from Canada but I feel that alot of people try to change things and it should just be left alone !!!

• 5 souvik // Aug 19, 2008 at 3:51 pm

  ha.. i like it!

  let me make it clear: i hate traditions that are clearly arbitrary and i like to see people try new things. i don’t like people who insist on doing things one way because that’s how they’ve seen it done growing up and have gotten used to it and when questioned hide under the intellectually vacuous answer of “tradition”. fuck tradition. it is only by exploring the phase space of possibilities that we can chance on something better. i agree its not great music these guys got going there, but at least they’re trying something new.

  now, i love muay thai. over the years my style has become very textbook according to everyone. but its not because i consciously tried to be “traditional”, but because i explored around the beaten track (incl other arts) and ultimately converged to the traditional style because its so incredibly optimized for my body-type! so if something is one way because its highly optimized, you’ll converge back to it after making some deviations from the beaten track. else, if it sheerly arbitrary, heck, make shit up! if its better, run with it, else you’ll automatically go back to the tried-and-tested.

• 6 Shane // Aug 19, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  Fuck tradition is a pretty harsh statement. There are tons of cultures based solely on tradition. Some of these cultures are extremely old and have taken that time to develop such an identity, in the west we haven’t really developed a sense identity nor does it seem that we will any time soon. Most people in the great developed west have solely concerned themselves about making a buck. So now all our culture is concerned about making money and paying bills. If you lose tradition, you lose culture and soon we are all just the same people living for the almighty dollar.
  I don’t know how long the ram muay music has been going on for but I believe it is part of the MT culture and should be left alone, if people want MT they need to embrace it…that’s all.

• 7 Shane // Aug 19, 2008 at 4:24 pm

  oh yeah…regardless, the music is shyte

• 8 robzepeda // Aug 19, 2008 at 5:45 pm

  I trained to this music when I was in Thailand. It was a camp mainly gear towards falang, but nonetheless the Thai trainers would pop this same exact CD in during training. Mind you, this music was upbeat and for training purposes only. There is even a version of the song with a guy telling you to “hurry hurry hurry!” and “go go go” like some Bas Rutten thai boxing tape.

• 9 spydaman // Aug 19, 2008 at 6:56 pm

  ashtonsf, I find it too very odd that they would allow “one” fighter to dictate what background music they should play during a bout but if u say u were there and that’s what you’ve heard then I guess u would know better and I was wrong in assuming that it was the promoters’ decision.

  Souvik, Muay Thai belongs to the Thais….don’t u think they should be the ones to make the changes?? The whole point is to “share” Muay Thai with the world…not “give” it to the world…when u share u still have ownership. I think ashtonsf said it best when describing the state of Muay Thai abroad ” It becomes more about the individual fighter and less about their respect and part in the whole art/sport/tradition.” SAD!

  Shane, Well said.

  I want Muay Thai to become more popular…but I’m afraid of the word “Mainstream”.

• 10 luv2bmom // Aug 19, 2008 at 8:38 pm

  Nopstar,
  This is a representative of World Team USA, the Bay Area camp you are referring to. I was told you wanted to address us in your blog so here is our response:

  1. The CD is from Thailand itself, aimed at modernizing training and fighting music.
  2. Team USA loves tradition to the fullest extent possible and have fought for it at fights in the last 10 years.
  3. Please consider this: promoters don’t always allow us to embrace these traditions and at times we offer a compromise. Whether that insults tradition or allows us to embrace in a different way is subject to interpretation, as you all have obviously expressed. Dennis Warners allows the traditional music; Scott Coker never wanted any of it and well this promoter allowed somwhere in between, ie. this CD and only two fighters doing the Ram Muay to not take up too much time.
  4. We do what we can to respect as much as we can. We ask and if it’s refused we have to comply. If they let us, we say great. Perhaps the other fighter didn’t ask.
  5. Your blog is great. You express discontent and disagreement in a respectful way.

• 11 nopstar // Aug 19, 2008 at 10:20 pm

  Luv2bmom-

  First off welcome mymuaythai, I appreciate the answer. As you can see I’m not hear to call anyone out, I’m hear to elicit opinions.

  I appreciate the fact that your fighters do the ram muay, I always have. I can also appreciate the dilemma with the promoters. That being said, the music you often use for your ram muay isn’t traditional, I take your point about embracing the tradition in your own way. However I’m more curious as to why you originally went with non-traditional music (for the ram muay) in the first place? I’m sure it’s an all or nothing thing right? Meaning the promoter is either going to allow you to do the ram muay or he isn’t right?

  Was the motivation to make Muay Thai more accessible? Was it to modernize?

  Souvik-

  Like all old traditions, there’s a reason why this music was used, we just need to do some digging.

• 12 luv2bmom // Aug 19, 2008 at 11:00 pm

  Nopstar,
  To answer your questions:

  1. We originally (10 years ago) began asking to have the traditional Ram Muay music (we still have it) and the promoters we worked with then said fans were bored of hearing the music and watching the Ram Muay. We began to fight mostly in LA back then.

  2. Since that time we introduced the more modernized version as it is somewhat more tolerable to both fans and promoters and where we can we ask to do the traditional music - Dennis Warner and BJohn Promotions.

  3. Promoters who we have a close relationship with and who want to promote Thai Kickboxing in the first place want to accomodate our requests to the extent that it doesn’t compromise their vision. So they will allow the Ram Muay in consideration for limitations in other areas - ie. only 2 instead of 5 fighters doing it, or a different kind of music.

  3. Always the motivation is to expose Muay Thai, not necessarily more accessible. If the interpretation is that we disrespect Muay Thai tradition by playing something non-traditional then we respectfully disagree. We feel the failure to do a Ram Muay disrespects Muay Thai more than perhaps performing it to a different tune. But that’s just us. If we take your interpretation and apply it to different rules of fighting does that then mean those fighters disrespect Muay Thai by not fighting with elbows or knees?

  Thanks for your blog. It’s an honor to Muay Thai. Very professioanlly done as well.

• 13 spydaman // Aug 19, 2008 at 11:41 pm

  “If we take your interpretation and apply it to different rules of fighting does that then mean those fighters disrespect Muay Thai by not fighting with elbows or knees? “….I’m not sure how that’s related in anyway to what Nopstar was saying. Deciding to use elbows in Thailand is somethning the fighters agree upon before the fight (or so I was told by very reliable sources). Rules of Muay Thai don’t state that one “must” use elbows but that one has a choice to use elbows.

  On the other hand if what you are talking about is the state of Muay Thai in other countries, I’m sure many will agree when I say that if elbows are not “allowed” in a Muay Thai bout, then it’s not 100% Muay Thai, it’s a modified version of it (I believe ISKA used to call it “Oriental Rules”).
  I do understand ur dilemna as I personally think that promoters are the ones altering the sport to try and please a wider audience (thus filling more seats at their events). I just think that Thailand has done enough damage to the sport by allowing all the gambling, I just don’t think that we need other people adding fuel to the fire.

  I apologize for butting in, I’m not attacking u and I respect for taking time to explain your side but this is a blog and people will speak their mind.

  ps:…I actually kinda like the music….lol but not while I’m watching a fight though..maybe they could use that tune for the Olympics..mainly the synchronized swimming event.

• 14 luv2bmom // Aug 19, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  Spydaman,
  No offense taken.

  I think if fans were more used to the Ram Muay and accepting of it, we would be able to use the traditional music without the interpretation that it’s boring. However, often times Team USA is the only school doing the Ram Muay. Therefore, it’s hard to project the image that the Ram Muay is a general practice.

  How about calling on all other camps to mandate the Ram Muay of their fighters before a fight, requesting the same of all promoters and Team USA would not be left negotiating for this on a case by case basis?

• 15 spydaman // Aug 20, 2008 at 12:14 am

  If I go by what you are saying then I respect you and you’re school for trying to keep the tradition of Muay Thai. There’s in fact a very limited amount of fighters in the US (even the world outside of Thailand) who actually perform the Ram Muay, we just need to get together and educate people on the deep meaning of what it represents. Of course promoters will be promoters but it has to start somewhere.
  I still disagree wit the change of music though, I would rather hear no music at all (of course that’s my opinion).
  In the old days, Thais fought in the ring to the rythm of the music. Basically the tempo of the fight was controlled by the tempo of the instruments..playing at a regular pace would let the fighters fight…well…at a regular pace. Playing faster would urge the fighters to fight at a higher pace (mostly during the later rounds). The music in the vid seems to be goin at the same pace throughout the whole fight which ultimately defeats the purpose ( I haven’t heard the whole track but since it’s a CD, I’m sure my assumptions are correct).

  Thanx for taking the time…..I’m off to the gym, there’s some thai pads over there calling my name. Peace!

  ps: I’m in no position to mandate anything, all I can do is make observations..lol.

• 16 H // Aug 20, 2008 at 12:33 am

  stupid farang.
  Go world team america!

  H

• 17 souvik // Aug 20, 2008 at 2:29 am

  shane: i suppose you mean there are traditional cultures in the world where blind adherence and respect towards tradition is prized over individual enterprise and innovation. yeah, i’m from a traditional indian family, does it get worse? this being a muay thai blog, i shouldn’t go into detailed reasons, but i’ll just say i think such glorification of tradition just for the sake of it is not just stultifying but ultimately unhealthy. you’re right, traditions (religious, artistic, martial) are often a source of identity to people. it breeds the “them and us” outlook to the world. so, i don’t care much for it.

  spydaman: i didn’t know muay thai was patented or copyrighted by the thai powers that be, i may have to look that up. i detect the apprehension in giving something to the world, though.

  nop: heck, all i know is that that music puts me in zone. ugh, indoctrination, i tell you. when i started i was told it is an adaptation of battlefield-music with horns, conchshells, trumpets etc that were a staple of ancient south-asian battlefields. kinda makes sense. except we use similar instruments at marriage ceremonies in india and it makes people laugh when they hear it at a fight. heck, you’re the muay thai man. you do the digging. we do the reading.

• 18 souvik // Aug 20, 2008 at 3:04 am

  i dove into muay thai after experimenting with kyokushin, shaolin and a little taekwondo. in all the others, i felt suffocated by the overwhelming adherence to uniform, tradition, un-earned “respect”, obviously useless convoluted katas/forms and commercialized belt-tests — much of it meant to promote this meaningless sense of identity over the learning of any real martial skill. so you can imagine how i fell in love with muay thai at first sight.. or should i say, first thai pad session with, “holy cow, this shit is real!” and then after several months of training and sparring my heart out, i began to see the sublime beauty of true muay thai techniques.

  its factorisable from the music.

  so, several years down the line, whenever i feel this sentiment of hankering for identity by imposing the relative superficialities of the ram muay or the wai khru, i think back to my karate days.

• 19 spydaman // Aug 20, 2008 at 6:32 am

  Souvik, I never said Muay Thai was patented and copyrighted by Thailand. It was “cute” sarcasm though but I won’t entertain it. Since this is in fact a blog and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I supposed everyone should also be entitled to their own interpretation.
  By the way, Muay Thai is full of traditions….maybe just as much as TKD or Karate…U might wanna look into wrestling or western boxing I’m quite sure you’ll meet very minimal cultural or traditional blockades in those sports. I’m going to sleep

• 20 Rockintako // Aug 20, 2008 at 6:57 am

  1/2 Lime
  1 Egg
  4 Tsp Fish Sauce
  3 Cloves Minced Garlic
  1/2 Tsp Ground Chili Pepper
  1 Minced Shallot
  2 Tbsp Sugar
  2 Tbsp Tamarind
  2 Tbsp Vegetable Oil
  1/2 Pkg Thai Rice Noodles
  2 Tbsp Peanuts
  1/2 Ib Shrimp
  1/3 Cup Tofu
  1/2 Cup Bean Sprouts
  1 Tsp Blueberries
  3 Whole Limes
  1 Pint Sapporo Beer

• 21 mlucas // Aug 20, 2008 at 8:15 am

  I don’t really like Team USA’s music. Its too techno and not the ram muay music that I appreciate. That said those kids do a good ram muay. I made fun of my sparring partner Tong for not doing the ram muay for his bout as he had the option to do so, and perhaps that’s why he lost? Tong hadn’t bothered to learn.

  His opponent, Skylr, did a very nice version of the wai khru. I’d never seen Skylr, who I’ve seen fight before, do the wai khru. He looked fluid and competent.

  I think that more gyms should encourage people to do the wai khru. Often in gyms it takes a couple people getting into a practice (and a leadership role) for a practice (like the wai khru) to be adopted.

• 22 Stack // Aug 20, 2008 at 10:26 am

  They should leave the music alone. It’s unneccesary and the end result is fairly bad imo.

• 23 Fighter X // Aug 20, 2008 at 1:49 pm

  I don’t like it either, It feels like im watching street fighter or something.

  It seems too pleasant to be associated with muaythai. Most of the thais will be laughing their heads off.

  To me if you want to alter the traditional music then maybe it could be more heavy, dark and bassy.I don’t know… just some thing to wake the crowd up i suppose.

  But I think give a couple of years and there will be some good remixes out haha.

• 24 rvafighter // Aug 20, 2008 at 3:07 pm

  I’m guess that the only thing that people don’t like is the Pi Java.

  I love Muay Thai, and while I appreciate the tradition, I’d be lying if I said that my “westernized” ears aren’t mildly irritated at certain time by some of the notes they hit. Mainly when they start playing fast. On the flipside, I actually really like the sound of some of the low notes they usually play during the Ram Muay.

  I think that there are ways to arrange the music that keep it appealing to everyone, without the need of playing some kind of Street Fighter or Double Dragon type of music during the fights. That vibe at that fight just seemed off because of that music.

• 25 souvik // Aug 20, 2008 at 3:18 pm

  spyda: i trained in international boxing for a year and a half. there were no cultural / traditional blockades that i sensed. so, yes, i do suspect that the sport aspect can be cleanly separated from the bs aspect.

• 26 luv2bmom // Aug 20, 2008 at 3:39 pm

  Please be clear that the music is not created and/or mixed by Team USA. That would give us too much credit.

  The music was purchased from Thailand at a training camp, mixed by Thais. So if the inference is that we in the west have changed it unilaterally, you’ve got it wrong. The Thais introduced it.

  Please remember that we are only trying to work with promoters to allow us to do this in some way or form. If they will let us play the traditional music that would be great.

  Again, since you all seem to be well versed with what should be done and how to do it, and you appear to be nak muays then why not ask that all fighters do this, all fighters request traditional music and the bargaining wouldn’t be left to Team USA alone?

• 27 kenji // Aug 20, 2008 at 10:54 pm

  In response to a previous post: I do agree the “kids” at Team USA do good ram muay, even better job in the ring. A perfect example is the smooth and refined 19 year old Skylr Penna, the new WCSC West Coast Jr. Welterweight Champion.

  “That vibe at that fight just seemed off because of that music.”

  Personally, I thought that fight was the best one of the night; Non-stop action from beginning to end, the entire crowd roaring, and both fighters leaving their hearts in the ring. This fight was an excellent display of Muay Thai and both fighters did a great job representing their schools.

  Congrats to Team USA doing a great job at Kezar, and bringing home 2 new championship belts.

  -kwg

• 28 Stack // Aug 21, 2008 at 7:03 am

  “I love Muay Thai, and while I appreciate the tradition, I’d be lying if I said that my “westernized” ears aren’t mildly irritated at certain time by some of the notes they hit. Mainly when they start playing fast. On the flipside, I actually really like the sound of some of the low notes they usually play during the Ram Muay.”

  Let me respond to this. Thai music and SE Asian music is microtonal. Meaning there is no standard whole or half steps to it asin western music theory. It’s organized in increments smaller than that and there are fairly wild dvies and leaps in that scale. That can be unsettling and not appreciated by western ears. But on a pure technical level there is far more to SE Asian music than western music in melodic and harmonic possibilities and use. Off-topic I know but I think important enough to point out.

  The music increases in tempo to encourage the fight played during the rounds. For me it works. I couldn’t imagine ram muay or fights with out music.

  It adds to the fight for me personally and it’s an integral part of the culture and an integral part of Muay Thai. It’d be like asking for a hiphop artist to be a little less black. Hiphop is urban and a black American genre to it’s core. Muay Thai inherently incorporates the music.

  Personally I find the remix a bit tasteless and stops short of outright butchery irregardless of the ethnicity of the remix artist. BTW who is the remixer? I’d be curious to hear some other samples they have created.

  Muay Thai operates in a unique realm of both art and ring sport. To compare this to a classical belt system martial art is not even partially accurate to my judgement. The traditions are important and should be honored along with the fight.

  That said I don’t care for the remix.

• 29 Greg W // Aug 21, 2008 at 7:23 am

  I was there, and I liked the mix of house and Thai music. Is there any way I can download it?

• 30 Gusnark aka Sandjora // Aug 21, 2008 at 9:05 pm

  This “modern sounding ram muay music” in the clip reminds me of Contender Asia fighting editing. I really don’t understand what is the point of that. Is traditional Thai music not good enough? Is Muay Thai by itself boring to a viewer? Is it lame? Is that why fighting in Contender Asia is edited with fake sounding shots and fake crowd cheering? If that’s true, why bothering with MT, in this case UFC and wrestling is the ultimate sport. We want see blood, thrashing, insulting, cage, kicks in the groin, you name it. Sieg Heil!

• 31 Frank // Aug 22, 2008 at 12:24 am

  I’ve always liked the Ram Muay, and am dissapointed when fighters don’t do it. I also like the traditional music and pacing to it.
  This mix doesn’t sound horrible, but I’d hate to perform to it. As somebody mentioned, the crowd is a big problem; lots of people that go to fights just want to see blood and knockouts and don’t care about style etc.
  Souvik’s attitude is exactly what I don’t want to see in the Muay Thai world. Straight up lack of respect. It’s just an immature attitude. You don’t embrace other’s culture and traditions? Fine. Grow up and show respect to us (everybody) and the world will be a lot more tolerable.

• 32 Stack // Aug 23, 2008 at 2:45 pm

  “If that’s true, why bothering with MT, in this case UFC and wrestling is the ultimate sport. We want see blood, thrashing, insulting, cage, kicks in the groin, you name it. Sieg Heil!”

  Precisely. Kick in the 90s numetal.

• 33 LorKoteKote // Sep 5, 2008 at 7:31 pm

  That was the worst fight music I ever heard. Traditional is much more exciting and raw!! This is like something they would play in a gay club haha555+. You know there are always some people that are not happy with someone else’s culture, like they don’t want to accept it’s not their own.

  I feel like they are trying to change little things to build up to the point when they can say “This is “American” muay Thai” so they will have an excuse when someone tells them your technique is incomparable to Thai nak muay. They will say “Because this is American muay Thai” 555+>??

  Fuck Tradition??? Nah Niggah, Fuck You!!

  salaam..

• 34 LorKoteKote // Sep 5, 2008 at 7:48 pm

  Thailand sells lots of things, doesn’t mean you should buy it. Your excuse is, we bought it from Thailand>?? Did you listen to it first? Were they speaking to you in a language you didn’t understand? And you just answered yes?

  This dude souvik is crazy too! COmparing Muay Thai and Karate?? Nah man it’s not that at all!! Comparing the money making belt system, katas and all that BullShhhh to Wai Kru???

  Do you know what Wai Kru(Teacher respect) is? It’s to pay homage to the people(Teachers,Fighters,Warriors) who came before you and developed this amazing Martial Art. How is that superficial??? iiiii Kwwaaaaiiiii 555+

  bpen kee nok jing jing woy!!

  salaam

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