Many thanks to John Wolcott for submitting this
As I sit here 10,000 meters above sea level I could not help but think about the latest articles I have read regarding the current state of Muaythai in America and the continuous debate on the whole East Coast versus West Coast matter. There have been some recent discussions whether the fighters on the East Coast can call what they do Muaythai or should it be referred to as kickboxing. The most recent article I read while siting at JFK Airport en route to Thailand featured some comments by professional Muaythai fighter Chaz Mulkey. Mulkey, who holds a passionate stance on the matter, openly invited East Coast fighters to step up and take the challenge of competing against a few of the West Coast fighters. He also stated that East Coast fighters are amateur at best, amongst other things. What better way to kill a handful of this fifteen and a half hour plane ride than to explore some ideas on the situation at hand?
Although I do agree with some of the statements made by Mulkey regarding the no elbows rule, I still think this should not fall into the hands of the fighters. On the East Coast, just like any where else in America, the fighters have to play by the rules. They did not create the rule book, nor do they agree with it, but they are forced to follow it. Mind you, many of the top fighters from the East Coast have fought under full Thai rules in Thailand and abroad and are willing to do so at any given chance they get. Muaythai is in their hearts and in their minds and although they cannot compete under full Thai rules as often as they would like they still have a passion for the sport. In addition, just like on the West Coast, there are plenty of fighters on the East Coast who have a very clean, very technical skill set – fighters who embody what Muaythai is and what Muaythai should look like. On the same note, there have been fighters from the West Coast who are allowed to use elbows but technically they do not have that traditional Thai style. This may not be true of every fighter on either side, or in between, but to say that elbows are the dividing factor between the skill set of the two coasts is illogical.
Out of respect for certain fighters I will spare the name dropping but the East Coast has many fighters seeking to break out of the New York City fight scene to make names for themselves. Having said that, in order for this to happen promoters need to put the politics aside and give the fans the fights they want to see, and give the fighters the opponents they want to fight. There have been more than a few instances where a fighter from the East Coast has defeated a highly regarded fighter from the West Coast and the outcome has never been talked about. The East Coast is like the Dark Horse of Muaythai. We have many great fighters with technical aptitude but very few people or media outlets willing to shed some light on the situation. If East Coast fighters are so bad how is it that an East Coast fighter can beat an undefeated West Coast representative for Team USA, but is then denied a spot on that very team? Or why the scheduled rematch, which is set to take place on the West Coast, is somehow silently swept under the rug? With situations like this frequently happening how are East Coast fighters supposed to make names for themselves or become relevant in the sport?
Similarly, problems have arisen where West Coast fighters are finding it harder and harder to secure fights outside of their region. When you have one of the best fighters in America willing to come to New York to compete and his manager’s phone is not ringing, there is an issue. It is understood that politics are always going to be part of the sport but there comes a time when the elephant in the room cannot be ignored. Mulkey’s statements might just be that elephant. His comments have already roused fighters and promoters alike, as well as the educated fan base. We can only hope that something constructive comes of this. We can only wish that the sanctioning bodies and the athletic commissions(the real powers that be) are listening. However, I wonder what an event promoted as an East Coast versus West Coast venue would bring to an already divided sport here in America.
Although Muaythai in America is still in its infancy, fighters like Kevin Ross, Ky Hollenbeck, and Miriam Nakamoto, just to name a few, are now making names for themselves and for the sport internationally. However, coming from a place where our Muaythai is often frowned upon by other parts of the world, we need more of our top level fighters competing against each other. Additionally, we need the rules unified. It is going to be one of the only ways to help raise the standards of Muaythai in America, as well as helping to get the American fan base familiar with fighters from each coast. I do agree at times you will find a fighter content with fighting B or C level opponents and unwilling to break out of his or her comfort zone. Despite that, you do have fighters, more often than not, that are willing to travel and compete against tougher competition. To label an entire coast as irrelevant in Muaythai based off of a few rudimentary observations would be a disservice to those who dedicate their lives to the sport they love.
Yes, Chaz Mulkey may be right. The no elbows rule will be a setback that the East Coast will have to deal with until an agreement can be reached. However, to refer to East Coast Muaythai as kickboxing would be watering down a flavorful sport. The elbows may not be there but the culture is. I have seen some beautiful Wai Kru’s being performed in New York and talking to almost any top fighter on the East Coast will remind a person that humility and respect are all an integral part of the game – qualities similar to those found amongst the fighters in Thailand. Additionally, in the East, the knowledge of those who are deeply rooted in the sport can be comparable to those who are involved in the West. Stripping away the “Muaythai” would be stripping away the passion that comes with it. Referring to the sport as kickboxing would take away from the promoters, the fighters, the trainers, and the members of the community who have spent countless hours, days, weeks, and years trying to help develop the sport they love. On the other hand, from the outside looking in, the lack of elbows may be viewed as a dishonor to the art of Muaythai. Those who have been fighting under full Thai rules may find it uncultured to refer to the East Coast’s version of the sport as such. To appease the masses and save face maybe the East Coast should bill their venues as “Modified Muaythai,” at least until the elbow rules change.
In closing, I think these debates are great for Muaythai here in America. For once people are finally talking and it looks as if a few promoters are willing to grant the fighters their request. Whether you agree or disagree with Mulkey and his comments, he has possibly woken up the sleeping potential that America has to become a major contributor of great fighters to the world of Muaythai. Maybe we will finally get a chance to see who the best fighters are. Not just on the East Coast and not just on the West Coast, but the best fighters in America, period.
About John Wolcott
John began practicing Muaythai in 2005. In 2007 he took his first trip to Thailand to train at Kaewsamrit Gym. It was during that trip when he developed a strong attraction for the Thai culture and a deep passion to further expand his understanding of the sport. Since that time, John has returned to Thailand every year to train at notable gyms such as Eminent Air and Sangmorakot. In 2009, John started coaching Muaythai at North Jersey Muay Thai under the guidance Joe Bumanlag and Ray Cruz. In addition to coaching, John acted as US Correspondent for the World Muaythai Magazine from 2007-2009. John is also the chair of the muay thai preservation project. When not involved with Muaythai, John enjoys reading, writing, photography, and studying the Thai language.
March 8, 2011 at 7:55 am
A friend pointed something out to me that I would like to expand upon..There is more separating Thai Boxing in North America and Thai Boxing in Thailand than just elbows..For example if every round is scored equally that is not Thai Boxing..if punches and low kicks are scored highly that is not Thai Boxing..if there is no Wai Kru that is not Thai Boxing..When I say “Thai Boxing” I mean what I know of boxing in Thailand..just some food for thought.
March 8, 2011 at 2:48 pm
I have had the pleasure of training Authentic Muaythai in one of the few gyms in the NY Metro area and I can tell you this as unbiased as possible, they are putting our quality fighters. I have heard this time and time again from everyone ranging from spectators to trainers. In my own humble opinion it’s NOT Muaythai if you’re not entering the ring wit out a Mong Kong and it’s def not Muay Thai if you’re not performing the Wai Kru. When you think about it, the whole purpose of performing a beautiful Wai Kru is to pay respect to your trainers, training partners, family and the Nak Muay of the past. Without the Wai Kru I feel as if you are paying a HUGE disrespect to the entirety of Muaythai, from your trainers to the unknown Thai’s in Thailand that have a dream of one day becoming a stadium champion.
I have had the honor of training with some very skilled Nak Muay and I am humbled till this day to have trained (and soon to be training again) and learned the skill from two men who have dedicated their lives to the sport. I LOVE this sport and I feel as if I owe something to Muaythai because it elevated my mindstate and for this I will ALWAYS be involved with the sport. I have had some of my greatest accomplishments in life partly due to training, competing and solidifying my mind to levels that I didn’t think were possible. As far as elbows go, because you (West coast) do not see East coast Nak Muay not fighting with elbows doesn’t mean that we do not train elbows and believe me when I say that I know PLENTY of Nak Muay (East cost) that would jump at the opportunity to compete under Full Thai rules.
I had my run at competing and I can tell you that not every gym that says they’re teaching Muaythai is actually teaching the art the way it should be taught but to classify an entire coast as kickboxing is unfair to the fighters due to the obvious fact that the rules are not in fighters hand and they are making due with what they are dealt. I am in agreement with putting a show together that will put West coast’s top Nak Muay vs East Coast’s top Nak Muay. I favor quality not quantity so let’s stop the arm flaling and the endless ineffective knees within the first 30 secs of RD 1 and put out some clean sound technique’s.
Sawat Dee Khap…
March 8, 2011 at 6:08 pm
As a representative of East coast Muay Thai. I say bring it on HAHAHA! But really this is just a “my Kung Fu is better than your Kung Fu” situation thats pretty amusing. Really its the sanctioning bodies and promoters that hold the key to putting on Full Rules shows. Why some wouldn’t even though given the oppurtunity, I don’t know.
Now I have trained with many great east and west coast thai fighters, even sparred wth Mulkey on a couple of occasions. But one thing to take into consideration when talking about the different styles between the east and west is who they are originally trained by, who helped cultivate their style. As many of you probably know we tend to immolate who we are taught by. The west coast has a larger number of “Thai” trainers which has a big influence on there “Style”, Not to say that this makes them better than East Coast fighters but they tend to have a more “Thai” style.
Now one thing I’d like to ask you guys to is what indicates “Authentic Muay Thai” I think to bury yourself into the cultue of muay thai is great. But to say its not Muay Thai because someone didn’t where a Mong Kong, jump over the ropes when entering the ring, seal the ring, perform the wai kru is not true. Remeber these are religous and cultural practices that are tied to muay thai and they are not for everyone. I mean are you going to say that Ramon Dekker was not muay thai fighter because he didnt follow these practices. No! Granted i think it is a beautiful thing to see these done and it does bring a certain nostalgic feel to watching a Muay Thai fight.
Anyways, an east coast, west coast muay thai battle would be great! Maybe I need to start promoting fights and just make it happen!
Regards, Ian
March 8, 2011 at 3:06 pm
probably the only time i feel good supporting shit talkers – if this is what it takes to get an east v west card, keep talking chaz.
March 8, 2011 at 5:37 pm
My name is Spyda….and I approve this message!!
March 8, 2011 at 7:26 pm
@Linxx_nakmuay – I sure as hell hope we don’t immolate the people who have taught us!!! LOL
March 8, 2011 at 7:41 pm
East coast grammar is amateur at best! lol jk
March 8, 2011 at 10:37 pm
Hah wow, thanks for pointing that out. Thanks IPhone auto spelling!
March 8, 2011 at 11:31 pm
I think we can all agree though that central north west american mauy thai is way more lagit than southern centeral sotheast american muay thai!!!!
March 9, 2011 at 12:00 am
Linxx, why is one of the Muay Thai instructors on your website listed as a 4th degree black belt in Muay Thai? I didn’t know there were black belts in Muay Thai.
March 9, 2011 at 12:44 am
Is there anything regarding the regulating bodies involved here? I was under the impression that was one of the main barriers to full rules muay thai? It seems like they exert pretty strict control? I remember a friend telling me that recently in California amateur fights had to be fought with shin guards now?
March 9, 2011 at 2:18 am
hahaha linxx got his spot blown. yes they have many ‘black belts’ in muay thai, as well as a certified YMCA kickboxing coach.
when im looking at the thai boxing instructor page its almost like a parody. but its not.
March 9, 2011 at 4:44 am
@Ryukyu Damashi – There are no belts in Muay Thai…… The Academy created a ranking system to track progression and advancement. Just like any other success martial arts business they have created a structured Muay thai program and created benchmarks for people to achieve. I know this is not common muay thai practice and can be frowned upon as McDojoey. Linxx Academy is one of the fewest and most well recognized gyms in the US for having a solid revenue generating martial arts program that produces world class competitors. We are in no way shape or form a competion based gym, but we have that outlet for those who would like to pursue it.
@SE- tell me how i got my spot Blown!……Thats great of you to point out the only guy in the line up who is helping a bunch of women get into shape at the Y in his spare time.
@mopey- what does that even mean? lol
March 10, 2011 at 12:44 am
Sorry Chaz is mostly right. He may not have delivered it in friendly fashion but the root of what he says is true and arguably there is some diplomacy that could have been used on his part. But the root of what Chaz says is right: it is kickboxing. The cultural argument is fairly laughable since the culture is what stipulated the rules set Muay Thai has that includes all 8 limbs.
It’s equivalent to calling a morbidly obese binge eater “thin at heart”. To quote a good friend of mine “If you say so fatso”. There’s just no substance to it. It’s not the people of NY’s fault but its a fight they will have to take on with their government and straighten out in order to finally have authentic Muay Thai happen there and not before. After all if you can claim credit for a water downed style being fought in NY as ‘authentic’ Muay Thai then why bother trying to get full rules there altogether? After all everything should be authentic and fine already.
Hyperbole and good intentions will only get you so far. When the east coast practices Muay Thai under the same rules as the rest of the USA and the world practices as Muay Thai then they have something to say. But a wholly deferential article doesn’t make up in any way for what doesn’t happen in the east coast and that’s Muay Thai.
The focus on both coasts to be honest is fairly nauseating and there is the big section of the USA called everywhere else that people are ignoring and unlike the east coast they do full rules Muay Thai. Maybe this entire debate doesn’t help Muay Thai in the USA so much as build hype for some people that don’t deserve it (like blackbelts in Muay Thai).
March 10, 2011 at 1:08 am
lol @ Americans arguing amongst themselves.
American Muay Thai isn’t even relevant on the western stage. France > Australia > UK & surrounding countries > Eastern Europe > USA
I can’t speak for Holland because those fuckers don’t even do Muay Thai anymore, they decided to follow Japan and do their shitty watered down rules….dutch people piss me off anyway.
Stick to your American football and calling real football soccer.
LMAO
March 10, 2011 at 1:12 am
Oh and Canada is also better than you, Cheers :)
March 10, 2011 at 2:13 am
stack that was well put. thats like what i would post if i thought before i posted.
heh.
canada is a damn joke. like an annoying step brother. the US is what makes you guys relevant. ever notice how you guys are always in our business while americans cant even be forced to give a fuck about canada?
March 10, 2011 at 2:27 am
I’m more interested in a USA vs Canada card. I bet if USA forgot about this east vs west stuff and decided to direct their aggressions towards the northerners they would smash the shit out of those mounties.
Until then you guys suck compared to us Aussies :)
March 10, 2011 at 2:45 am
You do remember what happened to Steve Moxon when one of us lowly Americans got a hold of an Aussie with 5X the experience level, a size advantage and a significant reach advantage?
Oh yeah I do: Moxon lost and badly.
And most of Canada doesn’t enjoy full rules Muay Thai – also not their fault but again the fault of bureaucrats who don’t know anything about sports, fairness or that they are in the 21st century and the world is evolving without them.
March 10, 2011 at 6:41 am
Just because there are no elbows or Wai Kru does NOT mean you’re not doing muay thai. If you’ve ever seen a match in Thailand with no elbows thrown than you know not every fight has elbows but it’s still Muay Thai. On the other hand,just about every juiced up meathead that trains at tiger in Phuket come out with the ugliest elbows,kicks, sweaty manhumping clinchwork and that, according to the arguments that have been made qualifies as MT.Especially since they Wai kru, hop over the ropes and Wai to the dude selling roasted scorpions.and elbow? BULLSHIT! We have real nak muay that fly to thailand to fight full rules. So Dont bash a whole coast because athletic commisions say we cant elbow. I can name a bunch of fighters that are Straight Thai style and it’s beautiful to watch but whats the point? I’m sure you’ve seen west coast nak muay that look like shit in terms of thai style so lets kill the who has TEH real Muay thai in America because we as a whole have alot of catching up to do. Even the French are better than us and that’s sad. Cuz they’re french…..and gay.
March 10, 2011 at 6:54 am
On another note,how can the fighters section have a bunch of Foreign Nak Muay on it but the most technically sound pure muay thai stylist born outside of thailand be left off of it. Show some respect to DANNY BILL AND PUT THAT MAN SOMEWHERE UP ON THIS SITE! (please,kthanks)
March 10, 2011 at 7:25 am
dany bill is absolutely awesome…but he’s (cameroonian+) french.
not ALL french people are gay.
March 11, 2011 at 9:15 am
Nakmeezy-
The fighters list are just fighters I’ve met or have some sort of relationship with. with the exception of Namsaknoi. He’s just too bad ass not to add.
March 10, 2011 at 8:18 am
You’re right,but the french rank right up there with Canadians ay. Danny Bill is Cameroonian like you said but moved to france. His technique is absoulutely beautiful .
March 10, 2011 at 11:58 am
Correction, the french are WAAAYYYY better than Us you see the fighters they put out?? Ridiculous. Guys like Farid Villaume, Fabio Pinca, Dany Bill, the Pinto brothers, Gregory Choplin, Mickael Lallemand & the list goes on. Probably the best “pure MuayThai style” outside of Thailand, guess their diplomatic relations with both Thailand and Cambodia may have helped witth that….but enough riding on the frenchie’s jocks.
UK & Australia seem to be at about the same level.when it comes to MT, very solid fighters on both sides. @Stack- Steve Moxon isn’t the most accurate representation of Australian MT, at least compared to the rest of the Aussie fighters in his weight class…. :-x
All that being said, we have really good trainers here in the states, Just very little general interest, and so many other sports to do, if MuayThai became as popular with young guys as MMA, we’d dominate the world scene within 5-10 years.
AMERICA=FUCK YEAH
March 10, 2011 at 4:01 pm
the pinto brothers may just as well be considered thai’s given their living situation and reputation – but i agree, france does have some awesome nak muays.
america – forever the underdog. i’m ok with that. it’s ok being this sports annoying, handicapped little brother trying to keep up. we already have some guys doing big things out and around the world, im sure at some point we’ll make ourselves top contenders…americans are stubborn and tough skinned with big hearts. it may not be our generation that makes the biggest waves, maybe it’ll be our kids or their kids. gotta have hope though and keep with the unrelenting support and pushing for full mt rules everywhere, level headed promoters and so on and so forth.
america, fuck yeah indeed.
March 10, 2011 at 4:22 pm
Of course France is light years ahead of both America and Australia. Anyone here who points to any excuse like the predictable “They’re gay” don’t know what they’re talking about it gets no simpler than that. Unless they’re vouching for it through personal experience in which case never mind.
Its not like anyone is talking you into pulling the helmet and moonboots off. Just don’t expect anyone else with 20/20 to call it Muay Thai because you think thats what you’re doing and the rest of the world doesn’t.
Moxon is above the norm in Australia because he’s been an actual title holder. Like most Americans most Aussies aren’t. The American with 1/3 the experience who soundly beat him doesn’t and suffered a significant size deficit going into that fight was not a title holder. Let the excuse making commence.
March 11, 2011 at 5:58 am
@ Snack I know enough about muay thai to know that the french are legit. The whole (non sexually) gay thing was a jab at my semi french friend spydah. We all get that you want to be the e-authority of Muay Thai and you have a whole bunch of vids of OTHER fighters You probably know what gym Khun teerak sor shamalamadingdong trains out of and his fight record,but how authentic is YOUR Muay Thai? When was YOUR last fight (if you have any) if you do, did YOU fight under full thai rules? You’re the best keyboard warrior on here but I’d like to see what qualifies you as such an authority on Muay Thai? Show us your 50 kick challenge, a recent or old fight SOMETHING! While I am still a newbie to Muay Thai (6 years in) I still fight,train and love the art so keep bashing my coast like we dont get it in. MY last fight was on Nov 6. And Your’s?
Since you like to fact check here are some sources
Mixfight.nl
Fighttalk.nl
Baassports.com
I fought a very french nak muay from Martinique and lost on points.
March 11, 2011 at 6:36 am
Nobody is bashing NY. I feel for them. What’s going there is hugely unfair. Basically its a mandate that came from your governor. In essence it’s this: if anything goes wrong in a MT or MMA fight there ever he’s firing the commissioner immediately.
Its a horrible spot for anyone to be in.
That said it’s nobody’s problem to fix but NY’s and until they do nobody even need to engage in an East vs. West thing because the East is absolutely in no danger of getting real Muay Thai any time soon.
And please Nakmeezy you’ve already proven I am about a million times smarter than you (not hard to do) and when you get your crooked eye fixed you can see straight to see what I am talking about. Its not like I hide anything like you beating up scrubs with 50 blocks fu LOL!
March 12, 2011 at 8:02 am
LMFAO @ “semi french friend spydah”….Ur full of jokes, ain’t u?…lol….Anyway, please nice, ladies!!!!
March 12, 2011 at 4:05 pm
did u say shamalamadingdong?..LOL ..u funny rude boi
March 10, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Imo neither Pinto is all that awesome. And their dad kills my inbox with a regular dose of malformed English spam. When the car’s out of gas I guess you have to push. But then again I don’t give anyone that much credit for beating an overweight and pretty much 100% shop word Bovy.
March 11, 2011 at 6:08 am
Of course neither Leo or Antuan are all that awesome to You. Your’re the GOD of Muay Thai! Antuan has a very thai style,speaks thai,has a sick wai kru, has fought GOOD fighters and you’re still not impressed? The most you can do is point out the fact that their pops cant speak english? He’s French for Christ’s sake! Nothing worse than a critic with no proof he can do better or even close. Your like a street thug that was raised in the suburbs but always wants to show how “real” he keeps it (on the net)
You wanna be a thug so badly too,you’re screen name reeks of fake thug! Yoyoyo STACK MO ONEZ SON! YEAH YEAH SAWADEE KHA N ALL DAT!
You’re as bad as those same same tee shirts in thailand POSER!
March 11, 2011 at 6:31 am
In English?
March 11, 2011 at 6:36 am
I’m sorry, your muay thai highness. I assumed you understood fake thug talk since your screen name is quite urban. Stackmo? As in stack more? More what? More e-cred? Keep stacking,but until I see some creds,you’re just stackin a big pile of trash.
March 11, 2011 at 6:38 am
Wow, were e-fighting on here at the same time. This is intense! I feel a connection. Do you have a myspace bro? lmao!
March 11, 2011 at 6:40 am
I speak to more Fernch people than you ever have and English isn’t my 1st language either. At least French and English are Latin based. And look my English is better than yours too.
Serge Pinto is a leech point blank and the worst spammer any where. And yes beating up Bovy who is outsized and has had so many multiple surgeries due to serious head injuries is not awesome. It’s like moonboot Muay Thai – you’re welcome to try to sell it and I am welcome to not.
March 10, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Has Chaz Mulkey fought full Thai rules in Thailand? Many of the east coast fighters he is talking about have fought many times in Thailand.
March 10, 2011 at 6:01 pm
@stack- Funny thing, there was this little rant by Antuan in my facebook newsfeed about how gamblers are ruining Muay Thai and how he’s soooo disappointed about his loss to noppalat wahh wahh etc etc. Yeah, i think his dad might’ve typed that because i just don’t see antuan making this type of status update because he never makes status updates, lol.
aaand i quote:
“After my last fight against Noppalat I’m very desapointed…Each fight I do my best for the spectators (the result wasn’t a problem if they are enjoyed).This fight is a big lesson for me and my choise(next time) is fighting more overseas where the people are spectators and not gamblers.The gamblers don’t come for watch a nice fight but only for bets…next time in Thailand,I fight only for money… ! No problem if they are unhappy because they don’t come for me but only for gambling.Today,the gamblers are killing the sport…and the sportman.”
In my opinion…IF ANYTHING, gamblers & gambling are keeping the fights HONEST and WELL-MATCHED, which keeps the Thai stadium matches SPORT first and foremost over entertainment= which is filled with mismatches and fixed fights for the sake of amusing the audience. Just my 2 cents.
…sorry to derail this thread…
March 10, 2011 at 6:24 pm
Oh and yeah i agree Antuan is overrated and given special treatment cause he’s a fair-skinned farang, but i think his little brother Leo is gonna surpass him, the kid has a sharp evasive style.
Also back to the thread: For the record, if you’re just focusing on New York, then there might be a case here, but i’ve seen many many very good east coast gyms that train and fight traditional Muay Thai style, and also go to Thailand to fight. Look at the guys up in pittsburgh, there’s the florida MT san shou guys in florida, there’s also boxingworks, so many gyms in the east coast, it’s just more spread out in comparison to california (namely the bay area) where the Muay Thai talent is highly concentrated.
March 10, 2011 at 7:17 pm
The focus is New York despite the real or imagined involvement of fighters there in Thailand which has no bearing whatsoever in what is going on the east coast.
France has fighters more internationally recognized and decorated than any other country outside of Thailand. They may not call themselves Grand master, Arjan or even Kru but they earned their stripes by fighting for them. And virtually none of the m hold a black belt in Muay Thai. In the USA we have retards making rankings that cannot even get weight classes right or understand simple things like email and effort.
Like I said enjoy wearing your helmet and moonboots meanwhile France has enough talent in their Muay Thai that their fighters can actually challenge for stadium titles.Which one seems more like real Muay Thai to you?
March 10, 2011 at 7:19 pm
@BabyRj, I’d supplement Antuan’s comments with tourists slumming and creating sound and fury based on nothing are an equal detriment to Muay Thai.
March 10, 2011 at 7:20 pm
Also Boxingworks is in Hermosa Beach, California. And they are to my opinion very authentic Muay Thai.
March 11, 2011 at 6:23 am
There you go again trying to be the tourist police of the threads. Boxingworksisblahblahblah. I wanna give an opinion on the authenticity of YOUR Muay Thai.
March 11, 2011 at 6:30 am
Tourist police? its just geography. Enjoy the moon boots
March 11, 2011 at 6:40 am
I LOOOOOVE MOON BOOTS!
March 11, 2011 at 6:43 am
Moon boots rock.
March 10, 2011 at 8:51 pm
I read Chaz’s statement a few months ago and I don’t really disagree with it. I remember a long time ago reading about Kevin Ross and saying how he wanted to fight under full Thai Rules and how if they didn’t it wasn’t real Muay Thai. At the time I thought it was arrogant but now I understand what he’s saying more.
Taking away a weapon makes the fight different, even if you’re not necessarily going to use that weapon. Its like in chess and taking away the bishop, or the knight. Is it still chess? Well sort of, but its modified chess for sure and people that are not very good at using their knights/bishops are going to do better. That said its not the fault of east coast fighters that they grow up under those handicaps, its not like the west coast is that much better.
I think about this a fair amount when I fight modified muay thai matches in the states. The rounds are shorter. The judges are boxing judges. You can’t elbow. The referees don’t like fighters clinching. These few things dramatically change the way in which you can fight yet these fights are called muay thai. Is it muay thai? Well Its certainly modified muay thai…
The whole strain of argument makes me think about how ridiculous it is to seek some sort of pure Muay Thai. “Its not Muay Thai if there is no Wai Khru, its not Muay Thai if its not at lumpini, its not muay thai if you don’t have a thai trainer.” I just don’t think that Muay Thai is that pure. Its convoluted and tangled. Its not like being Thai makes you automatically awesome at Muay Thai, or that fighting in Thailand means that the match is going to be great. I’ve seen plenty of shitty muay thai fighters that are thai.
I remember being at Ganyao’s house, drunk (very Muay Thai!) and Jongsanaan asking me; “Matt, Matt, what do they teach you in Thailand? They teach you Muay Thai. It doesn’t matter where you go. They teach you Muay Thai.” Its not one pure strand that is the best of the best but rather some that are better than others, and those strands are still muddied.
March 10, 2011 at 10:01 pm
so argueing east vs west dominance is like argueing about who is the fastest kid at the special olympics?
March 10, 2011 at 10:54 pm
exactly prettysweet.
egg-zach-ree….
March 11, 2011 at 12:25 pm
indeed, just because there are elbows and wai kru does not make it proper thai boxing, but if these elements are missing, and there is different scoring, different number of rounds etc, in my opinion it is undoubtedly not muay thai..maybe you can call it kickboxing, or american muay thai, or something like that, but it is very different from the fights you see in thailand.
and matt made a great point about how just because elbows are not used in a fight doesn’t mean that they aren’t a factor. clinch is very different with elbows as well as many other things.