8 limbs not 6
October 20, 2008 by nopstar
I came across a vid this past weekend of a friend who runs Sit-Kangmonkorn out of Pittsburgh. Stephen aka Pisand is a student of Matee Jedeepitak. Matee was the subject of my first blog post.
Most of you who are from Europe may not realize but in the US, most states don’t allow full Muay Thai rules aka elbows. It’s up to the States governing athletic commission to decide whether elbows can be used.
As far as I’m concerned, the quality of Muay Thai in the States will never be on par with Europe as long as full Thai rules are banned. You’re completely at a disadvantage if you’ve spent your entire time training in the States. When I trained in SF we would work elbows into combinations, and drills. Did we ever work it into sparring? Did any of us own elbow pads? Hell no, I was really uncomfortable when I first started sparring here in the UK… I was literally like ” Oh shit… never had to look out for those in the past.
I do think the quality of Muay Thai here in the UK is higher then that in the States, although I don’t boil it down entirely to the restricted rules in the States. The UK and Europe have always had a fairly robust appreciation for Kickboxing and Muay Thai.
As Stephen had mentioned, they’ve got vast distances to cover to fight, the States is a big ass country, if promoters can’t sell out the venue they sure as hell aren’t going to fly someone out from across the country. In the UK it seems many more fighters travel to train and fight in Thailand, I know a lot of UK camps have official relationships with camps in Thailand. I just don’t see that as much in the States…
Anyway, this wasn’t the point of this post. I wanted to highlight the struggles many Nak Muay’s in the States face. Could you imagine training in the UK but having to head over to Holland if you wanted to fight? It be nice if Mark aka Jaipetch were able to fight at home. Anyway, I hope with the popularity of MMA, Muay Thai will be able to ride it on it’s coat tails.
Best of luck fellas.
Yup Stephen’s great. I favortied this on my channel thing long ago. I always liked Stephen and Matee has been an old fave too.
That Mark Deluca fought on a uk show in leeds on saturday night as a matter of interest nop
I agree that the lack of elbows hamstrings US nak muays. And, sadly, I think the US’s love of MMA actually hurts muay thai. The vast majority of MMA fans I’ve been around have no appreciation for technique – they want to see the ground and pound. That doesn’t bode well for American muay thai in my opinion.
In Ontario Canada, we currently don’t even have a proper santioning body. There are no fights, and if there is we are wearing head, leg and chest gear, and definetaly no elbows.
There is old legislation in place stating that a low kick to the leg could cause a blood clot, which could cause a stroke =causing death.
I do hope that the popularity that MMA brings will help not hinder…
I also agree that MMA is hurting muay thai. MMA fighters would have a great advantage if they trained in thai boxing, but the work out and low kicks a too painful (obviousy not all fighters). Furthermore, they are worried about being taken down after throwing a kick.
I don’t understand how MMA can be sanctioned professionally and not muay thai – it doesn’t seem to me that there’s anything about full-contact muay thai that’s more dangerous to the fighters than in MMA. In fact it seems like it’s the opposite – I’d think MMA fighters would be more likely to get injured due to things like ground & pound… in fact the rising popularity of MMA coupled with the low serious injury rate would seem like a good argument for sanctioning full-contact mt.
Is it just a money thing? The popularity of MMA clearly gives it an advantage in terms of lobbying for establishment/changes of rules & laws.
Here’s a thought though – wouldn’t it be possible to hold pro muay thai matches under established MMA regulations? It seems like full contact muay thai fits well within the boundaries of the current unified MMA rules.
stephen, god bless ‘em. was extremely diplomatic in discussing the difference between muay thai and kickboxing…thought i saw some gritted there..lol. this all reminds me of attending some muay thai cards in milwaukee back in the 90’s when only knees below the waist were allowed…
good point divergent – i’ve fought (and i know maaaaany other nak muays have as well) on mixed mma/muay thai cards whether we’ve fought in cages or in the rings and the pro MMA guys got the whole shebang and the pro ( i’m only am ;[ ) muay thai guys didnt get shit but no shinpads / no headgear.
the whole night the MMA guys were elbowing the absolute christ out of eachother faces on the ground much to the delight of the crowd but when the am/pro muay thai guys came out…it was all “TAKE THAT TENNIS RACKET OFF YOUR HEAD…STOP DANCING AND FIGHT YOU FRUITS…FLYING KNEE TO THE FACE!!!”
we’ve fought under ‘horizontal elbows below the neck and above the waist’ and ‘downward elbows to the traps/shoulders but not the neck’ and it’s just a tease on the same card the MMA guys get ‘please elbow to the nose as hard on a down opponent as you can in hopes of covering the ring with blood and maiming another human for life, thank you.”
…bah, fuck this. i’m moving to the thailand.
in ontario, canada – native/indian reservations have been holding mma fights as mma fights are still illegal here.
from what i’ve witnessed here with muay thai – altering the rules/what is allowed in the ring, not only weakens us on a world level, it is completely changes the nature of how muay thai is approached. one of the short lived governing bodies here, had a rule that only allowed an opponent’s head to snap back, i believe 3 times? as a result, a lot of fights just became boxing matches – basically if you could snap your opponent’s head back 3 times, you won. and because of that, it influences how we’re trained. it’s unfortuate and frustrating.
Same as the US. All I have to say is thank God for BJohn and Warner. They’ve done more for MT in the USA then all the ‘Masters’, “arjahns’ and ‘krus’ combined.
If MT is ever gonna make headway in the US as a sport to be taken seriously these paper masters need to be discarded wholly. Collectively they’ve done more harm than good to MT than MMA could ever hope to.
Besides some MMA rule set do not allow elbows altogether. MMA guys collectively think elbows and cuts are a ‘cheap’ way to fight and an easy win. Well, if it’s so easy then how come precious few know how to actually defend them? It pains me when I hear MMA guys invoke their MOO TAH training.
Everything allowed in MT is allowed in MMA, so it really doesn’t make sense for the state commissions to limit certain techniques in MT bouts…
I think muay Thai in the US is more like “American” Kick boxing. No elbows is not real muay Thai. In my opinion, 8 limbs is just enough. Enough to speed up the fight and make it exciting. Blows so devastating, fighters have to be hyper-vigilant. They have to be extra careful and skillful. I have seen a bunch of ” American Kick boxing”, alot people just try to go crazy in the ring with no grace or technique. hahaha I could see some American kids elbowing somebody and killing them in a fight.
Personally, I think it’s because of the exposure muay Thai has gottin in the US. Karate dojo’s painted Muay Thai and Jiu-Jitsu on their window and if they are really lazy they will just write MMA hahaha Alot of “(U.S.)Thai boxing” teachers have never even fought before. No fight experience. Watching youtube…You will find alot of places that say they teach everything. These breeds confused fighters.
Even Europe allows elbows!!! What is the deal America?? So stubborn, Lbs., Miles, inches555+
salaam…
It appears that some states in the US do not allow full Muay Thai rules but that doesn’t mean its restrictive everywhere. I went to a tournament in Northern Virginia this past weekend which was full Muay Thai rules – elbows and knees were both allowed. All of the fighters wore pads but they were still allowed to use those strikes.
My dojo also teaches elbows and works them into our combination drills. The school doesn’t focus on them as much as I would like but we still get exposure.
Thus, it’s not all bad in the US.
Khap khun ma khup for posting this! I took 4 fighters down to Khun Kao’s show in Virginia this past weekend and will continue to support his show especially for full rules for amateurs.
Good news is in Pennsylvania, the commission appears to be in the process of approving MMA and with that, a promoter in Philly informed me he’s looking to do pro muayThai too.
So there is hope – push for it, and use the rise of MMA as your wake to open up the eyes of the bureaucrats about our sport — with ALL 8 limbs.
Cheers,
stephen
Awesome post and comments! Thanks for those that mentioned my Virginia event! I’m still struggling with the State Athletic Commission to allow *FULL* rules Muay Thai, but we’re getting sooooooo close! We have 3 battles we’re still fighting:
1. No “Axe Elbows” (downward spike) to the head are permitted. These are allowed to other parts of the body.
2. No strikes to the spine. (OK, I admit that I have no argument for this one)
3. If you trap a leg, you must release as you strike and are only allowed 1 step in any direction. (this is the rule that I’m actively working on getting changed)
If anyone is interested, check out this video clip of the weekends action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSnekMI8VWE
As I believe you can see, the USA has the talent, it just needs the venue in which to showcase it!
Stay tuned for my next event!!!! Kaensak Sor.Pleonjit is tentatively committed to attend and perform the Wai Kru/Ram Muay Ceremony to kick off the show!!!
http://www.KHUNKAO.com
Man it must be frustrating for MT practitioners in The States.
Khun Kao, good luck with the Commission.
I believe it’s just a matter of time MT will be approved by the Commission.
I actually had the opportunity to compete this past weekend at the Virginia event. I lost, oh well. But I’m already looking forward to competing within the next event.
I hope the events continue here in Virginia and possibly in other states. Its great to see the enthusiasm of so many for such a great sport when these things are put on.